I think you're right that the heart of this problem is that people are talking about fundamentally different things and have fundamentally different definitions of what a Mary Sue actually is. I have a problem with Mary Sue hate because:
A) people start throwing the phrase around so much that it doesn't mean anything, especially when it comes to canon: no matter the fandom, some female character will be labeled a Mary Sue--the most infamous one I can think of is Ginny Weasley in HP, who isn't very well-developed as a character, but who the plot definitely doesn't warp around. Instead of saying, "Oh, she's a flat character and we're told, not shown, why she's cool, and I just don't buy her relationship with Harry at all," people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" even though if you look at strict definitions, Harry is far, far, far more of a Gary Stu than Ginny is. But he's a guy, you see. Guys are supposed to be heroes! [More on this last anon.]
B) People use it viciously against thirteen-year-old girls who are just starting to write. And lots of times they do write Mary Sues (that are also self-inserts) and people act like it's the worst thing that ever happened to fandom. Yes, it's bad writing. But most of us started out there. (I never posted any of mine, but I'm sure I wrote it.) And then we got better. If we weren't scared away from fandom by the older fans who acted like we'd committed an unpardonable sin. [Note: this is not what you're doing here, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that. But I have seen it happen.]
C) It's gendered. A female character could have the exact same traits as a male character, but the female is labeled a Mary Sue while the male one isn't. I hate that. [SPN fandom was bad about this with both Bela and Ruby; the entire time those characters were running around being bashed for being Mary Sues, I kept thinking, "If these characters were men, the fans would love it and would slash the hell out of them with the boys." Other fandoms have similar problems.]
That's why I tend to be a Mary Sue...not defender, not apologist...someone who who tries to get people to rethink the whole thing, I guess? I hear people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" and I brace myself, because it's probably going to turn ugly.
But! You're not doing any of that here, and I totally and completely agree with your post, and I also agree with your definition (even if I think it's not the same one a lot of people use). All of those things you list? Bad writing, definitely. And I hate it. Great post!
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Date: 2010-04-15 01:45 am (UTC)A) people start throwing the phrase around so much that it doesn't mean anything, especially when it comes to canon: no matter the fandom, some female character will be labeled a Mary Sue--the most infamous one I can think of is Ginny Weasley in HP, who isn't very well-developed as a character, but who the plot definitely doesn't warp around. Instead of saying, "Oh, she's a flat character and we're told, not shown, why she's cool, and I just don't buy her relationship with Harry at all," people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" even though if you look at strict definitions, Harry is far, far, far more of a Gary Stu than Ginny is. But he's a guy, you see. Guys are supposed to be heroes! [More on this last anon.]
B) People use it viciously against thirteen-year-old girls who are just starting to write. And lots of times they do write Mary Sues (that are also self-inserts) and people act like it's the worst thing that ever happened to fandom. Yes, it's bad writing. But most of us started out there. (I never posted any of mine, but I'm sure I wrote it.) And then we got better. If we weren't scared away from fandom by the older fans who acted like we'd committed an unpardonable sin. [Note: this is not what you're doing here, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that. But I have seen it happen.]
C) It's gendered. A female character could have the exact same traits as a male character, but the female is labeled a Mary Sue while the male one isn't. I hate that. [SPN fandom was bad about this with both Bela and Ruby; the entire time those characters were running around being bashed for being Mary Sues, I kept thinking, "If these characters were men, the fans would love it and would slash the hell out of them with the boys." Other fandoms have similar problems.]
That's why I tend to be a Mary Sue...not defender, not apologist...someone who who tries to get people to rethink the whole thing, I guess? I hear people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" and I brace myself, because it's probably going to turn ugly.
But! You're not doing any of that here, and I totally and completely agree with your post, and I also agree with your definition (even if I think it's not the same one a lot of people use). All of those things you list? Bad writing, definitely. And I hate it. Great post!