Moral Dilemmas on the Small Screen

[deird_lj]

I have a confession for you all.


...one which most of you won't care about in the slightest, and the rest of you will probably disagree with me about.


But here it is, for what it's worth:

I don't think that Dollhouse is morally simple (black/white, good/evil)
- but if it is, I'm on the side of the bad guys.


See, here's the thing. Sierra's handler does something insanely evil? Adelle finds out? I cheer as Adelle kills the bastard in a very ironic manner.

Dominic is secretly working for the NSA against the Dollhouse? Adelle finds out? I cheer as Adelle sends him to the attic.

Paul breaks into the Dollhouse to get Caroline out?

...he takes down Topher, and I gasp in horror.

...he opens November's pod, and I want to hit him.

...he smashes through Victor's pod, and I want to hit him harder.

...he takes on Boyd, and I hope desperately that Boyd wins.

...he tries to take Echo outside, and I shriek "No! You bastard! Poor Echo!"

...he gets punched by Boyd, and I think about poor Topher, lying tazered and unconcious upstairs, and clap Boyd enthusiastically.

...Echo pulls him down the stairs, and I cheer!

...Adelle ties him up in her office and smiles nastily at him, and I cheer some more!



This has never happened to me before.

I liked Jack Harper, but I still wanted him to lose to Tru every week.

I loved Lilah Morgan, but I still wanted Wolfram & Hart's schemes to fail.



But, you see, I care about the Dollhouse employees.

Adelle is lovely (if insanely ruthless and more than a little bitchy), and she does seem to think that they're doing altruistic work.

Ditto with Topher.

Claire and Boyd? They're protecting the dolls, more than anything else. (Plus, Claire wins major woobie-points for her face.)

And the actives themselves are just cute as anything.


...whereas Paul is basically an utter bastard. Who is slowly going insane.



So, if you insist that it's a black and white situation, with "Paul demolishes the Dollhouse, and sets Caroline, et al, free (thus sending the others to jail, and dissolving the Doll personalities as the real people resume their lives)" on one side, and "Adelle, Topher, Claire, and Boyd all continue to run the Dollhouse, the Dolls continue to paint and go swimming, and Paul goes down" on the other side, I'm going to be lining up on the Evil side of the equation.

I just care so much more about those people...

Comments

From Laney

[(Anonymous)]

Why does she get major woobie points for her face? Unless she's played by Eliza D., in which case I think I'd be awarding woobie points every time she made the shot.

I saw an episode of Angel the other night. It came on while I was feeding Josh very late, and we ended up enjoying it too much and watching it. And getting very tired.

Here are my questions:

1) Matt and I reckon you would think Wesley is cute. And also Cordelia, and that you might ship them. Are we right?

2) I don't find Angel one bit attractive. Yet I find David B. quite attractive in Bones. This may have to do with the fact that Angel does not appear to exhibit a sense of humour.
Or does he? Did I get the wrong episode / season?

3) I LOVE the evil lawyer corporation with senior partners concept. And I REALLY like that grey-haired guy who seems to be the main Wolfram&Hart dude. He looks familiar. Has he been in something else I should know?

4) I thought Spike was in Angel. Is he? I feel like you showed me a cool scene on youtube or something.

5) Are we supposed to ship Angel with anyone? Or is the idea that he's meant to be tragically in love with Buffy but unable to be with her for the rest of eternity?

6) The prophecy last night was that Angel would become human. Does he?

None of this has anything to do with Dollhouse, I realise. But you did mention WR&H, so I seized the opening.

Plus, I suppose I could ask you whether finding people attractive when they have a cool sense of humour is relevant to your Dollhouse 'Go, baddies, go!' issue. It seems a bit like your Tempus guy being too ridiculously cool (or The Master, for that matter).

(Incidentally, I would loooove to discuss That Video...)

Re: From Laney

[deird1]

Hoo-boy. Long reply coming up...


Why does she get major woobie points for her face? Unless she's played by Eliza D., in which case I think I'd be awarding woobie points every time she made the shot.

Okay. This woman (who is played by one of the most gorgeous actresses I know of - see my icon) was, about a year previously, slashed across the face with a knife by our villain.

Her entire face is covered in long disfiguring scars.

And she's so lovely, and rather self-conscious, and you just end up wanting to give her lots of big hugs and chocolate...



Onto Angel...

Which episode are we talking about, here? I'm guessing, just from the 'prophecy' mention, that it was the finale of season 1. But I'm not entirely sure. More details on the plot would help?

Matt and I reckon you would think Wesley is cute.

Wesley is incredibly cute. You really do have to witness the progression from "glasses-wearing dork" to "stubbly shotgun-user" to truly understand how awesome he is - I'll show you pictures sometime.

And also Cordelia, and that you might ship them. Are we right?

Heh. Not even close, on this one (although they were a very cute almost-couple on Buffy).
I would ship Cordelia with Dennis The Ghost, or occasionally with Angel.
Wesley I tend to ship with Fred (again - see the icon), and otherwise with Lilah (evil, but incredible) or Illyria (blue-haired version of Fred... sort of).

I don't find Angel one bit attractive. Yet I find David B. quite attractive in Bones. This may have to do with the fact that Angel does not appear to exhibit a sense of humour.
Or does he? Did I get the wrong episode / season?

His sense of humour only appears occasionally - but it's just wonderful when it does. Angel smiling just lights up everything.
I'll show you clips, at some point, and you'll see what I mean...

I LOVE the evil lawyer corporation with senior partners concept.

Uh-huh. Really works well for the show.

And I REALLY like that grey-haired guy who seems to be the main Wolfram&Hart dude. He looks familiar. Has he been in something else I should know?

Hmm. Once again, it would help to know which episode we're talking about here. The "main W&H person" changes several times.
I'm guessing you mean Holland Manners - who is pretty cool.

I thought Spike was in Angel. Is he?

He is. In season 5. (Which definitely wasn't the season you saw.)

Are we supposed to ship Angel with anyone? Or is the idea that he's meant to be tragically in love with Buffy but unable to be with her for the rest of eternity?

Hmm... Good question... Sort of both...

Angel is Dark And Tragic, because he is forever Doomed To Be Apart From The Love Of His Life.
Who the said L.O.H.L. actually is depends on who you ask, and when we're talking about.

At any one point in time, the Love Of His Life From Whom He Shall Eternally Be Parted could be Buffy, Darla, and Cordelia all at the same time. It gets slightly confusing.

Personally, I ship Angel/Darla like nothing else (because they're AWESOME), but that's possibly just me...

The prophecy last night was that Angel would become human. Does he?

It... gets complicated. I'll explain it sometime.


None of this has anything to do with Dollhouse, I realise. But you did mention WR&H, so I seized the opening.

Hey, anytime. I'm always happy to discuss almost any of the shows in which I have an interest.

Plus, I suppose I could ask you whether finding people attractive when they have a cool sense of humour is relevant to your Dollhouse 'Go, baddies, go!' issue. It seems a bit like your Tempus guy being too ridiculously cool (or The Master, for that matter).

Ooh. Good point. Although I never actually wanted Tempus to succeed...

(Incidentally, I would loooove to discuss That Video...)

(We'll talk.)

Re: From Laney

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Holland Manners is probably familiar as he recurs as Rose's husband on Lost (not that we've seen him since the fall)

The prophecy last night was that Angel would become human. Does he?

It... gets complicated. I'll explain it sometime.

Especially if one includes that "Season 6" comics...

[aisalynn.livejournal.com]

I think of it more of as a "there are no bad guys" type show. And I love it for it, because I do care about all the Dollhouse employees even as I stand with Paul on the idea that it is morally wrong. And as for Paul, yes, he's a bastard but I still love him to death.

Probably because he is a bastard. He's screwed up and obsessive, very angry and self loathing and I love it. I really think this whole thing isn't really about the Dollhouse being so horrible he has to take it down, but a form of self hatred. He sees in the Dollhouse every evil that he has the potential for (as we see with how he treats Mellie. Especially in that last--rather rough--sex scene) and he's fighting them as a way of fighting himself. So Caroline (or at least the idea of Caroline) is sort of his salvation. And I think that as long as that's what is driving him, he's going to fail.

And I'm alright with that.

[obiwahn.livejournal.com]

Very well worded, and couldn't agree more.

[snowpuppies]

Yes. This is pretty much how I feel.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

...whereas Paul is basically an utter bastard. Who is slowly going insane.

IMO, this was established pretty early on: Paul isn't the knight in shining armour, even though he thinks he is (or rather precisely because he thinks he is). He's Holtz. He's the Knights of Byzantium. I've got an insanely pretentious and possibly very offensive meta post brewing, but yeah; Paul is the villain. Adele is a villain too, and Topher is arguably the worst villain of the bunch (though depending on exactly who that was that Alpha freed, he might have competition...) but Paul is the biggest villain of them all because he violates Caroline/Echo/Mellie/November just as much as any of their clients: by imprinting them with an identity without knowing the first thing about them, deciding who he needs them to be and then treating them as such. As aycheb put it:

It’s not about abduction or rape or trafficking or human experimentation. It’s about objectification from which all the other badness flows. It’s about making stories into people and people into stories.

[deird1]

Holtz!

Of course he's Holtz! Why didn't I see that earlier?!

[mymatedave.livejournal.com]

I love that comment, it's entirely about the objectification. Paul himself said it.

"I'll rescue Caroline and come back and shut this place down."

No concern for the other Dolls, none even for Caroline/Echo, she's not a person, she's a prize.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

Oooh, good call with Holtz. That's like best metaphor ever.

[obiwahn.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with all your observations. I was very much rooting for Boyd with regards to the fight, and VERY unhappy with Paul and his one-track "I must save Caroline" agenda. I don't think we are supposed to root for him at this point. At least not in the show I am watching. I know plenty of people disagree with me about him though.

If Caroline breaks free, it won't be because of Paul. At this point I think that would go against all things Jossian. His treatment of November really upset me especially.

I for one cheered when Echo smacked him.

[quinara]

I think the thing is with Dollhouse is that there aren't any good guys, that's the point. At least not in the sense that they're an effective 'side'. Did you ever read this article? I like the way it sums up that the Dollhouse isn't trying to represent part of society (like human trafficking etc.), but society as a whole and the process of objectification. The dolls are being objectified left right and centre, both explicitly by the bad guys and implicitly by the good guys (and, I would add, without a clear goal of what they should become to be free of that objectification).

Long story short, I think as the audience we can only make judgements on a moment-by-moment basis, and as far as Episode 11 goes, I'm definitely not on Paul's side. He has no idea what he's dealing with, he doesn't understand the dolls at all and he's pretty much as bad as the Dollhouse people anyway. When the dolls on their own rise up I think I'll be on their side, but until then the bad guys are actually the best equipped to make them feel safe (even though they made them the way they are).

Plus DeWitt PWNS!!

[next_to_normal]

Yes, this. There are no good guys here.

I actually find myself not really rooting for anyone - obviously, it's more interesting if Paul fails, because if the Dollhouse is exposed, the show's pretty much over. But in terms of stakes in the characters, I can't really say I'm on anyone's "side," because they all kind of repulse me. :-P

[quinara]

they all kind of repulse me

If I met them they'd repulse me, but I can't help but be fascinated by watching all their flaws spin out on screen, turn into somewhat admirable qualities, and then go back to being flaws again.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. I think one factor is that there are so *many* more 'bad' guys than 'good' guys - you've got Paul on one side, and then all of the Dolls and employees of the Dollhouse on the other side. Normally, it's the reverse; a gang of good guys fighting a few bad guys. It's kind of natural that you'll root for the people you see the most.

And it helps that Paul is a crazy-ass bastard with warped ideas about women, and that all the employees are just trying to help.

And it helps even more that if Paul's scheme actually worked out...

...the show would kind of become pointless and boring. And all the characters we like would go away.

So yeah, I'm totally on the Adelle-Topher-Claire-Boyd-Dolls side. I don't understand how one couldn't be.