OCs - Y/N?

[deird_lj]

Some people in ffrantsrants are having a discussion about OCs, and if they can be written in a worthwhile way.

And most people seem to be agreeing that, yes, they can - as long as they aren't the central characters in the story.

Which... I find interesting.

Largely because I have, on last count, 18 different stories based around OCs.

I also have over 100 different OCs in total, but lots of them are background characters, so they aren't central to the story, and the people at ffrantsrants would be fine with them.


But...

There's a bunch of people connected with Sunnydale High, like Harry the caretaker, Trisha, head of the fundraising committee, and the visiting landscape artist.

There are a whole lot of Potentials, some given names, one anonymous.

There are two vengeance demons, three police officers, an orchestra conductor, and a bartender.

There's the self insert who gets eaten by vampires, and the self insert who destroys the universe.

There's Nancy Fletcher, who isn't quite an OC, but counts anyway.

There's Lissa, who falls in love with a teenaged Tara.

There's a Slayer with a lot of strange pets, a couple of Watchers trying to prepare for the worst, and then there's Rapunzel, who really isn't an OC - but her Watcher Henri definitely is.

All of them the central characters in their own stories, with the Scoobies staying in the background (if they even appear at all).


I seem to produce OCs all over the place, without really noticing. It just sort of... happens.

Possibly it's a sympton of being a gen ficcer. Gen seems to lend itself to OCs in a way that slash never could.

Or possibly I'm just weird.


But, at any rate, I've never really seen much of a problem with OCs. They're fun!
Mary-Sues, yes, absolutely. They're annoying, and horrible, and I'll happily lead the charge against them if you'll just hand me an axe.

But OCs? They're lovely, they really are. And I don't really get why people seem so determined to keep them out of the story.


Questions? Comments?



(Sidenote: virtual cookies to anyone who can identify the apparent error in here, that actually is quite intentional but I'm hoping won't be noticed...)

Comments

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

I'm amazed that people have a problem with OCs. IMHO, done well, they can add a lot to a story. I suspect you're right, and the fact that you write a lot of gen makes them more common and acceptable. People looking for pairings (slash or het) are less likely to be tolerant of any other characters who get in the way. Anyway, I can think of plenty of fics I've read where the OC was an important and enjoyable part of the story, if not the main focus. Not everyone is able to write an OC well, though. And that may be the problem - too many Mary Sues and/or cardboard characters have soured readers on the whole idea.

[deird1]

Not everyone is able to write an OC well, though. And that may be the problem - too many Mary Sues and/or cardboard characters have soured readers on the whole idea.

This is why I love seeing people doing normally-bad stuff really well - like snickfic's mpreg fic. Getting to see how something could be done is really fun - and inspiring.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

- like [info]snickfic's mpreg fic. Getting to see how something could be done is really fun - and inspiring.

Oh, so true! As I tell her in every review - I can't believe I'm reading this and liking it! LOL

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

virtual cookies to anyone who can identify the apparent error in here

Umm.. you said "18 different stories" but only linked to 17 of them? :-)


I can sort of see the point: a lot of people read fanfic because they fall in love with the characters, and if you take those away and replace them with OCs, it isn't really fanfic any more, it's original fiction.

That wouldn't apply to stories focussed on an OC which are designed to highlight or contrast the behaviour of one of the canon characters, though... your story about the Aussie Slayer and her drop-bear army is as much about Buffy's reaction to the idea.

On the other hand, there are people who are interested in the world-building and the concepts and mythology of a show rather than (or as well as) the actual characters - I can't see them having much problem with a story about an OC. Of course, it depends on how detailed and coherent the setting is.

[deird1]

Oh, well done! *hands you cookies*
(And yes, it was done intentionally.)

That wouldn't apply to stories focussed on an OC which are designed to highlight or contrast the behaviour of one of the canon characters, though... your story about the Aussie Slayer and her drop-bear army is as much about Buffy's reaction to the idea.

True. I included that one on my list mainly because there was a reasonably large chunk of story solely about her.

And yeah, I think it's a lot to do with world-building.
Like the characters in snowpuppies' Chosen series. There are bits of the Buffyverse it's rather tricky to explore if you're stuck with canon characters.

[next_to_normal]

(And yes, it was done intentionally.)

But... whyyyy? What is the mysterious 18th OC fic??? I must know!

[deird1]

Oh, you'll find out eventually...

*is mysterious*



ETA: The 18th is now up.

[next_to_normal]

Ah-ha, you sneak! :)

I'd forgotten all about this mystery. If I'd remembered, I might've considered it a clue in trying to guess authors. I pretty much ruled out that fic as yours, though, because of the shippy threesome. Well, two out of three ain't bad.

[deird1]

*is sneaky*

I pretty much ruled out that fic as yours, though, because of the shippy threesome.

Well, I kinda had a choice between a shippy threesome, a different shippy threesome, and slash. None of which I'm any good at. I decided to go for the one with plot...

[next_to_normal]

Hee, yeah, once I saw your explanation post, I thought, "Ohhhh, that explains it." :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I got this far in the FFRR post:

A good female OC... can it actually be done?

And then I punched the air. Yay! Finally, somewhere where the patriarchy still stands! ;-)

Seriously, obviously OCs can be done well, whatever their sex, whatever their part in the story, and even whatever the pairing (though pairings can get very iffy). And the point that you and others make in the thread about exploring the world of the canon by use of OCs is something I would have thought is very obvious (it's even canon in Doctor Who) but it doesn't even seem to occur to some people... I know I've seen posts on FFR arguing that it's not even fanfic at all. Riiiight.

[deird1]

Finally, somewhere where the patriarchy still stands!

*grins*

(I'd forgotten about Doctor Who - how terrible of me.)

And yeah, I don't get how a story about, for instance, a Slayer and Watcher trying to deal with 17th century Wolfram & Hart could be considered not-fanfic...

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Me neither. IMHO, if it's set within the universe/world established by the original creator, it's still fanfic. Bottom line - if it's done well, and the story stands up, it can be just as enjoyable as something centered on one of the characters we know.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

I've certainly heard of these crazy people who don't like OCs - and I sort of see where they're coming from. OCs gone wrong are quite possibly worse than OOC fave characters - because there's not even the grounding of "I liked them on the show", or some good traits from the show to keep them likable.

But reading gen without fun OCs exploring the Buffyverse in different ways and putting the Scoobies into perspective - why, that'd be like not reading Deird at all! Tea without sugar! Graham crackers without frosting! Gatorade without ice!

That is to say, bad.

I mean, take The Very Secret Diaries of Andrew Wells, f'rinstance - it's completely amazing, and without wonderful OCs, it would suck. Because there'd be one character...doing what, exactly? Hanging around the Scoobies? Yeah. No.

Anyhow - it's weird. I have a really hard time imagining not liking OCs right now, but before I started reading your fic, I didn't really read that many OCs, especially as main characters - the occasional from Snowy, maybe.

But now I can't picture ficing without them. You're just that convincing. :D

[deird1]

Really? *blushes*

I've certainly heard of these crazy people who don't like OCs - and I sort of see where they're coming from. OCs gone wrong are quite possibly worse than OOC fave characters - because there's not even the grounding of "I liked them on the show", or some good traits from the show to keep them likable.

I think you're probably right about that one - because bad OCs can be really bad.


Tea without sugar! Graham crackers without frosting! Gatorade without ice!

Heh. The cultural gap rears its ugly head: I have never seen Graham crackers, and have only ever drunk Gatorade in its natural, in-bottle form.
You are, however, utterly correct about the tea. :P

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

Really? *blushes*

But of course, dearie! Reading your fic is like Intro to Good OCs 101. And I *just* realized after typing that, that you don't need both Intro and 101. :D

I think you're probably right about that one - because bad OCs can be really bad.

Oh, definitely. Like...yeah. There are no words. :O

Heh. The cultural gap rears its ugly head: I have never seen Graham crackers, and have only ever drunk Gatorade in its natural, in-bottle form.

Never seen graham crackers! Why, that's like...not having a childhood! o.O Although I suppose I'm missing out on some Australian food goodies - I'm told lamingtons are quite tasty.

But really - they're delicious! And the perfect vehicle for frosting - I had a bunch of leftover frosting from some frosted cookies I made, and instead of throwing it out I've been using it up on graham crackers. It's so yummy.

But the Gatorade thing is a personal taste - I keep a bottle in my fridge and pour it into glasses and drink it with ice. Which isn't American so much as me...ican. :D

But I didn't know you guys have Gatorade...huh. Crazy.

You are, however, utterly correct about the tea. :P

Oh, is it sad that whenever someone says they like tea without sugar, I start to think less of them? :P

I just...don't understand. Yes, sugar can mask the flavor of some things, and using other sweeteners in baking can be better - whatever. But not putting sugar in your tea means it tastes like pretty much nothing - a completely joyless and sad experience.

[deird1]

Lamingtons, yes! Very yummy. (Although trying to describe them to people who've never eaten them is complicated. There's only so many ways you can make "stale cake with coconut" sound appealing.)

And minties! And pavlova! And meat pies! And milo! Woo!

*loves my country's food*

Gatorade's never exactly been hugely popular over here, but yes, it definitely does exist. (Unlike Dr Pepper, which apparently is only liked by Americans, ever. They tried exporting it to lots of places, but gave up after a year.)

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

There's only so many ways you can make "stale cake with coconut" sound appealing.

Lawlz. My friend described it as "cake with coconut and chocolate rolled inside, and sometimes jam too if you want to go nuts." Sounded pretty great to me. :D

Unfortunately I've never had any. Might have to make some myself if I get the chance.

*loves my country's food*

My country's food is boring, in that the original things are trashy-ass junk food, and everything else is from other places. *fumes*

Although I suppose we have a pretty decent selection of Other Place food, so. That's good.

Unlike Dr Pepper, which apparently is only liked by Americans, ever. They tried exporting it to lots of places, but gave up after a year.

Really? Huh. I think it's pretty yummy. Not as good as root beer, though. Root beer + me = BFFs.

Although, really, the best thing to do when going out to eat for a drink is to go to the soda...machine thingy (I want to call it a fountain but at the same time that sounds wrong? I don't know what it's called) and mix all of the sodas they have there together. It always tastes delicious, and everyone else thinks I'm nuts and won't steal sips from me! :D


And lookee at you - new link in your side bar! It feels weird, cause...in my peripheral vision it's like "ONE TOO MANY LINKS WRONG WRONG WRONG". LOL.

[deird1]

Hmmm... *plots ways to give you Aussie food samples*

(You guys have apple pie. Apple pie is good...)


And lookee at you - new link in your side bar! It feels weird, cause...in my peripheral vision it's like "ONE TOO MANY LINKS WRONG WRONG WRONG". LOL.

Hee! I was wondering if anyone would notice that. It's finally up to enough entries that it's worth linking to - even if it's only half done.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... *plots ways to give you Aussie food samples*

Well, I'll just pick some up when I'm over at your house learning how to make tea right. :D

(You guys have apple pie. Apple pie is good...)

This is true. I like pie.

Hee! I was wondering if anyone would notice that. It's finally up to enough entries that it's worth linking to - even if it's only half done.

Oh, wow! I hadn't realized til I clicked on it that it was bookmarks on Delicious - is someone manually uploading all the still_grrr fic onto it? Cause...that would take forever. o.O

[deird1]

is someone manually uploading all the still_grrr fic onto it?

Err, yes. That would be me. :P

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

:O

Girrrrl, you like CRAZY.

(Also, not that I'm a creepy stalker at all, LOL, but your Delicious bookmarks are so organized that it kind of blows my mind. And also makes me want to cry.)

[rahirah]

I've never had anyone complain about my OCs, and I've got dozens of 'em, several of whom have been viewpoint characters. I just wrote a story where the lone canon character didn't even show up till two-thirds of the way through.

The thing is, a lot of fanfic writers just don't have much experience creating and writing original characters - or much experience, period. So of course you see a lot of crappy OCs. What the anti-OC brigade seems to miss is that those crappy OCs are generally denizens of stories which are crappy in other ways as well. Show me a well-written story in general, and odds are any OCs in it will be well-conceived and interesting as well. The catch-22 is that very few writers can get to be any good at creating and writing OCs unless they go through the learning phase of writing crappy ones - yea, even unto the Mary Sue. Lord knows I created my share of brilliant space-traveling telepathic archeologist-swashbucklers in my day. I don't want to read them now, but there is a market for Mary Sues, or Mercedes Lackey wouldn't be so popular.

Now, if someone were to argue that many fan fiction readers aren't generally interested in original characters no matter how well-written they are, because that's not what they go to fan fiction for, I would tend to agree. But that's a completely different argument.

[snickfic]

Totally agree with both points: that lack of experience has a lot to do with crappy OC's, and that fic readers aren't actually looking for OC's in the first place.

[deird1]

I've never had anyone complain about my OCs, and I've got dozens of 'em, several of whom have been viewpoint characters. I just wrote a story where the lone canon character didn't even show up till two-thirds of the way through.

Your OCs are very worthwhile and interesting, as far as I've seen.


Lord knows I created my share of brilliant space-traveling telepathic archeologist-swashbucklers in my day.

Oh, definitely. My hard drive has a lot of my old Mary Sues languishing inside. Thankfully they never made it onto the internet, though, because they really were rather insane...

[rahirah]

Hard drive, ha. Thankfully mine died with the spiral-bound notebook. *g*

[snickfic]

For me, a huge difference between OC's and canon characters is that I can't see the OC's or hear their voices. Getting me to read an OC is a matter of making the character as interesting and vivid -- at least on a short-term, sentence-to-sentence basis -- as the characters I've been watching and daydreaming about for over a year now. It's no easy thing.

But you know, there's a huge difference between hard and impossible. You manage the balance really well, and I'd definitely agree that OC's are easier in a gen context, where the entire story isn't so focused on one pairing. However, one of the very first longfics I ever read was penwiper26's Giles/OFC novel Shadow Though It Be (archived on her geocities site - hopefully she'll move that before geocities goes under). And because the woman can write and because she has no romanticized notions about her character, it is fabulous, despite the fact that she's very upfront that Elisabeth is basically a self-insert.

So, yay for hand-but-not-impossible things!

ETA: In fact, the longer I'm in fandom the more I appreciate the hard-but-not-impossible stuff, because at this point in our beloved Buffyverse, I'd say most of the stuff that it's easy to do well has been done. (Except for Giles/Faith, which IMO has vast new landscapes with very few trails as yet. It's one of the reasons I'm shipping them so hard.)

(Also, I'm totally chuffed to be on your list of "normally-bad done well." 'Cuz that was the secret dream when I started.)

[deird1]

In fact, the longer I'm in fandom the more I appreciate the hard-but-not-impossible stuff, because at this point in our beloved Buffyverse, I'd say most of the stuff that it's easy to do well has been done.

Yeah, it's quite disheartening having a brilliant plot in your head, and then finding out it's already been done twelve times...

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

Hey, all the best fiction is about OCs!

Well, not necessarily, really, but it's a funny thing to say that OCs are bad, because it's mostly OCs that get officially published, no? Only a relatively few fandoms exist where people can actually get paid for writing what amounts to "fanfic", like Star Trek.

But Barb and snickfic are right, of course--people who want to read fanfic usually want to see their favorite characters in the spotlight.

[deird1]

Heh. Very true.

[quinara]

I've grown a lot more comfortable with OCs over the years, though I've never really stopped writing them. They pretty much come and go as they please, as much as the story demands it - sometimes there won't be any and other times I'll spend a good few hours getting them all straight before I start writing about them. I'm always wary about making things too much about them though, because, like Barb mentions upthread, OCs have the problem of probably not being what people are hankering for.

[deird1]

Yeah, it's definitely easier to find people who are interested if you can say "my story is about Buffy/Spike going on a date, and Xander hunting for giant wasps," rather than "it's about two OCs going on holiday"...

[next_to_normal]

A lot of what everyone else says:

1. OCs, like anything in writing, are not inherently bad. It's just that we see so many bad examples that they've gotten a bad reputation.

2. Likewise, a lot of OCs end up being Mary Sues, and so the two often get conflated. Some readers just assume that ANY OC in a fic is going to be a Mary Sue.

3. People who write bad OCs usually write badly in general. Stick to good authors, and you'll probably find good OCs.

4. Most people reading fanfic are not looking for stories about OCs. If they wanted that, they'd read a real book. No, they want their OTP, dammit, and that more often than not means canon characters.