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deird_ljIt really is quite weird reading an internet discussion, forgetting about it, finding it again a year later, and discovering you now agree with the other side.
In other news, the Buffy comics are definitely not canon.
…possibly I should explain?
Well, at the height of my Whedonesque reading, someone started this discussion, about canon, and comics, and Word of God, and whether the Buffy comics counted as canon just because Joss said so, or not.
I knew precisely what side I was on. Of course the comics were canon! After all, Joss had said so! And that was what mattered, obviously.
The idea that you could decide what was canon just based on your own ideas of what canon was or should be, was… insane. To put it mildly.
I remember reading that discussion very well. And I remember wanting to scream at my computer screen (which I couldn’t, because I was at work) and possibly reach through the internet and slap the heck out of Dana5140 for being so obtuse, and stubborn, and just not getting it. He was such an idiot!
…fast forward to a year and a half later…
…which is when I found the thread again, and read it (mostly out of sheer boredom).
AND IT FREAKED ME OUT.
Because, re-reading it, I could see that, clearly, Dana5140 was totally, completely right, and knew precisely what he was talking about (brilliant man), and really deserved a medal.
Awesome, awesome guy, who was so utterly in the right.
It was so weird. Because I could remember this discussion, and I could remember agreeing with the posts I was now disagreeing with, and disagreeing with the posts that I now agreed with. So Very Strange…
Sitting back and thinking about it, it didn’t actually take me all that long to figure out what had changed.
You see, in the year and a half gap between readings, I had discovered fanfic.
There are basically two different kinds of Official Buffy Comics: the authorised comics that came out while the show was airing (and were quite often completely crap), and “Season 8”.
In 2007, my opinion went something like this:
authorised comics – crap, contradicted by the show, and not canon
season 8 – going to be fun, will not contradict the show, and canon because Joss Says So
In 2008, it changed to this:
authorised comics – kinda fun (although still crap), contradicted by the show (but who cares), and not canon (but that’s okay)
season 8 – kinda fun (also kinda crap), cracky, and not canon (at least not for me)
I changed my mind on two different things.
Firstly, canon can be defined in many different ways, by many different people, for many different reasons.
And secondly, whether or not something is canon really doesn’t matter that much.
What on earth does this have to do with fanfic?
People who pay attention to my ramblings might know that, until mid-2007, I thought fanfic was complete and total dren. Horrible, ridiculous stuff, that was badly written by people with no imagination.
Also, writing it meant that you hated the original story and wanted to change it, and reading it would completely wreck the original story for you, by having this alternate version forever stuck in your head.
Then I read some.
After a few months of that, I’d realised that not only was fanfic actually rather fun, and quite well written, it was mostly written by people who loved the original story and had something to say about it.
Also, reading it (lots of it) would really help your appreciation of the original story. Especially if you read heaps and heaps of versions of “Oz and Willow go shopping” or “Xander and Gunn get into a fist fight” or “Fred is secretly in love with Lorne” – because reading so many different takes of the same concept would give you lots of options to choose from, and you wouldn’t just have one version stuck in your head, and because they were all coming at the original story from different angles, you’d get to really focus on the original story, too…
Changing my perspective on fanfic really changed my perspective on the authorised comics – because they were fanfic too.
Fanfic in visual form, sure, but definitely fanfic.
Suddenly it didn’t matter whether they got everything right, or whether they were “officially correct” or not. They were writers having fun playing with the story, and they were fun to read. And they were fanfic – just like all the fanfic I had been reading (and writing).
Also – I didn’t actually get into fanfic through Buffy-related stuff. I got into it through a story about the X-Men, where Bobby and Rogue get married, and aliens make Bobby pregnant.
(Seriously. Go read it. It’s awesome.)
This is X-Men. Which is from Marvel comics. (I’d recommend reading a “what is canon?” discussion by comic book fans sometime. They really are fascinating.)
And the story specifically said that it was “post X2”.
After the second movie, ignoring the third, changing anything from the original comics that didn’t fit what we’d seen in the movies, and canon be damned.
“Canon”, for the purposes of that fic, meant “The first movie, and the second movie, and anything else I like from the comics”.
It changed my perspective.
Suddenly, I could write a Buffy fic and say that canon for that fic was “The show. Just BtVS, not AtS.”
Or “The show, plus this authorised novel I really liked.”
Or “The movie. I don’t like that crappy TV show.”
Or “BtVS, plus AtS, plus the season 8 comics, but not the AtF comics.”
Or “Both shows, all the comics, plus something Jane Espenson said in an interview once.”
Or anything else I wanted.
Wow.
Like I said – the season 8 comics are definitely not canon. Not my canon, anyway.
My canon is the TV show (all the episodes) and nothing else.
But for anyone else? They can come up with whatever canon they like. It’s their choice.
I really don’t think it matters, in the end.
In other news, the Buffy comics are definitely not canon.
…possibly I should explain?
Well, at the height of my Whedonesque reading, someone started this discussion, about canon, and comics, and Word of God, and whether the Buffy comics counted as canon just because Joss said so, or not.
I knew precisely what side I was on. Of course the comics were canon! After all, Joss had said so! And that was what mattered, obviously.
The idea that you could decide what was canon just based on your own ideas of what canon was or should be, was… insane. To put it mildly.
I remember reading that discussion very well. And I remember wanting to scream at my computer screen (which I couldn’t, because I was at work) and possibly reach through the internet and slap the heck out of Dana5140 for being so obtuse, and stubborn, and just not getting it. He was such an idiot!
…fast forward to a year and a half later…
…which is when I found the thread again, and read it (mostly out of sheer boredom).
AND IT FREAKED ME OUT.
Because, re-reading it, I could see that, clearly, Dana5140 was totally, completely right, and knew precisely what he was talking about (brilliant man), and really deserved a medal.
Awesome, awesome guy, who was so utterly in the right.
It was so weird. Because I could remember this discussion, and I could remember agreeing with the posts I was now disagreeing with, and disagreeing with the posts that I now agreed with. So Very Strange…
Sitting back and thinking about it, it didn’t actually take me all that long to figure out what had changed.
You see, in the year and a half gap between readings, I had discovered fanfic.
There are basically two different kinds of Official Buffy Comics: the authorised comics that came out while the show was airing (and were quite often completely crap), and “Season 8”.
In 2007, my opinion went something like this:
authorised comics – crap, contradicted by the show, and not canon
season 8 – going to be fun, will not contradict the show, and canon because Joss Says So
In 2008, it changed to this:
authorised comics – kinda fun (although still crap), contradicted by the show (but who cares), and not canon (but that’s okay)
season 8 – kinda fun (also kinda crap), cracky, and not canon (at least not for me)
I changed my mind on two different things.
Firstly, canon can be defined in many different ways, by many different people, for many different reasons.
And secondly, whether or not something is canon really doesn’t matter that much.
What on earth does this have to do with fanfic?
People who pay attention to my ramblings might know that, until mid-2007, I thought fanfic was complete and total dren. Horrible, ridiculous stuff, that was badly written by people with no imagination.
Also, writing it meant that you hated the original story and wanted to change it, and reading it would completely wreck the original story for you, by having this alternate version forever stuck in your head.
Then I read some.
After a few months of that, I’d realised that not only was fanfic actually rather fun, and quite well written, it was mostly written by people who loved the original story and had something to say about it.
Also, reading it (lots of it) would really help your appreciation of the original story. Especially if you read heaps and heaps of versions of “Oz and Willow go shopping” or “Xander and Gunn get into a fist fight” or “Fred is secretly in love with Lorne” – because reading so many different takes of the same concept would give you lots of options to choose from, and you wouldn’t just have one version stuck in your head, and because they were all coming at the original story from different angles, you’d get to really focus on the original story, too…
Changing my perspective on fanfic really changed my perspective on the authorised comics – because they were fanfic too.
Fanfic in visual form, sure, but definitely fanfic.
Suddenly it didn’t matter whether they got everything right, or whether they were “officially correct” or not. They were writers having fun playing with the story, and they were fun to read. And they were fanfic – just like all the fanfic I had been reading (and writing).
Also – I didn’t actually get into fanfic through Buffy-related stuff. I got into it through a story about the X-Men, where Bobby and Rogue get married, and aliens make Bobby pregnant.
(Seriously. Go read it. It’s awesome.)
This is X-Men. Which is from Marvel comics. (I’d recommend reading a “what is canon?” discussion by comic book fans sometime. They really are fascinating.)
And the story specifically said that it was “post X2”.
After the second movie, ignoring the third, changing anything from the original comics that didn’t fit what we’d seen in the movies, and canon be damned.
“Canon”, for the purposes of that fic, meant “The first movie, and the second movie, and anything else I like from the comics”.
It changed my perspective.
Suddenly, I could write a Buffy fic and say that canon for that fic was “The show. Just BtVS, not AtS.”
Or “The show, plus this authorised novel I really liked.”
Or “The movie. I don’t like that crappy TV show.”
Or “BtVS, plus AtS, plus the season 8 comics, but not the AtF comics.”
Or “Both shows, all the comics, plus something Jane Espenson said in an interview once.”
Or anything else I wanted.
Wow.
Like I said – the season 8 comics are definitely not canon. Not my canon, anyway.
My canon is the TV show (all the episodes) and nothing else.
But for anyone else? They can come up with whatever canon they like. It’s their choice.
I really don’t think it matters, in the end.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 01:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 01:52 am (UTC)Isn't that what Joss is doing too as the creator? He's saying canon for the Buffyverse includes Season 8, just the way you define canon for your fic. Then again, it's a part of the compact a reader makes when they choose to read your story - do they accept what the creator has defined as canon or not?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 02:41 am (UTC)Er, not quite. A fanfic author decides what parts of canon are relevant to their fic, but no author assumes that their fic IS canon. Joss, as the creator, is saying, "This thing I'm writing right now is canon." It doesn't mean you have to like it, or pay any attention to it - hell, didn't Gabs just post about people who think the show ended at season 3? - but it's not the same as a fanfic author's establishment of canon for a fic.
Personally, I've found the entire "is it canon?" debate to be pointless. Because as Deird has demonstrated, fanfic authors don't care if it's canon or not. Season 6 is canon, but that didn't stop me from tossing it out and writing my own. And season 8, canon or not, won't stop me from writing post-Chosen or post-NFA fics that completely ignore it.
The only time it really matters is from a meta perspective - if you're discussing character arcs or themes or whatever, then it helps to have agreed-upon parameters of what is canon. But because this particular divide occurs at a change in medium, it's easy to say, "I'm only considering TV canon," just like it's easy to only examine Spike's arc on BtVS and ignore his appearance on AtS.
I dunno, maybe I'd care about it more if I were actually interested in meta that included season 8, but as it stands my position is basically, "Yeah, if Joss says it's canon, then it is, but it doesn't have a modicum of impact on what I think or write, so who cares?"
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 02:54 am (UTC)But honestly, I've kinda reached a point where I don't care either. I define canon as what Joss calls canon. I dismiss or use the canon at will. TYSK plays within S8 canon. Another fic I'm working on completely disregards it.
It just kinda bothers me. I'm imagining my OC Amara and how I understand her character - if someone were to completely dismiss what I knew to be true and 'canon' about her in my fic. Or let's say I completely remove Amara from the Buffyverse and write a few one-shot stories about her. One reader accepts the first as canon, but doesn't accept the others as canon. I say all the stories are canon for Amara's journey, even though the second story was written long after the first. The reader can choose to dismiss the second story, but they can't decanonize it. Because the author determines what is official and what isn't. Personal canon to me feels like coopting ownership of the 'verse.
For me, canon is a shared understanding among many who recognize an authority's decree as being the highest authority on the subject. Personal canon, in this understanding, is an oxymoron. Because it is no longer shared understanding nor recognizing any authority but your own. And so it's your opinion and personal taste - personal canon just feels like a fancy way to say "this part of the story doesn't matter to me and I choose to ignore it."
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 03:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:25 am (UTC)I think it's just easier to ignore/dismiss because it's not the same medium. If it were the actual television show or television movie, etc. with the original actors, people wouldn't like it like they do now, but I think they'd be more inclined to (grudgingly) accept it as canon.
Kind of like...you go to class expecting to find your teacher teaching, but leave when you see it's just a substitute, because they don't really count, and it's not really class. That is the best simile I could think of :P
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:26 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:31 am (UTC)Ahem.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:32 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 06:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 06:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 05:20 am (UTC)All that and a bag of chips :D
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 06:44 am (UTC)Partly agreed. The trick is that, as much as I think the Season 8 comics don't fit with (or even make a point of contradicting) the TV series, it's still Joss' story and, y'know, there's a reason we put those disclaimers on fics. If he says it's canon that Buffy's a bankrobber and Willow's into zoophilia, then as much as I happily disregard the comics when discussing or ficcing the TV show, I honestly find it hard to say "Yeah, but what does Joss know."
On the other hand, to quote Joss himself, "canon is key, as is continuity." As I see it, with Season 8 you have to choose one or the other. And personally I prefer the latter to the former.
So I'm increasingly leaning towards a very simple approach:
Me like TV show.
What happen in TV show happen in TV show.
What no happen in TV show no happen in TV show.
Canon? What is?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 10:00 am (UTC)Oz was only a wolf for three days per month, remember...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 10:07 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 11:02 am (UTC)Well, we also know that Willow is into bondage and locking people in cages, don't we?
Or was that just Vamp!Willow?
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 11:43 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 11:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 03:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 11:54 pm (UTC)Meanwhile, there must be a ton of similar possible prompts. Maybe my old Rat!Amy/Miss Kitty Fantastico plotbunny is considered almost canonworthy by now? Or how about Joyce/Zombie!Cat?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 12:38 am (UTC):)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 01:02 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 09:56 am (UTC)Which is fine. The English language evolves; words change their meaning. But it can cause communication problems if one person is using 'canon' to mean "the officially accepted baseline that everybody accepts" and another is using it to mean, apparently, "whatever I personally accept, and I don't care about you, but you can create your own canon if you want"...
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 12:31 am (UTC)But then it gives me an excuse to say they can go fuck themselves, and explain that I'm changing the usage of the word fuck to mean, um...something not mean? I don't actually do this in real life, obviously. :D
This kind of language malingering is also what leads to some otherwise perfectly nice people thinking it's okay and not offensive to use "gay" or "fag" as an insult - because in this context it doesn't mean homosexual anymore, it just means stupid! *sigh*
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 12:34 am (UTC)*sporfles*
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:22 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 10:34 am (UTC)Of course, that doesn't mean I take every word of dialogue as literally true. It's not true that the Doctor is half human on his mother's side — it's just true that he *said* he was once. Now, when he said that, he was still in the early hours post-regeneration, and you can explain the line any number of ways without accepting it as true.
Any factual contradictions are easily Hand Waved (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave) with the words "Timey Wimey Ball (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TimeyWimeyBall)".
On the other hand, Star Wars has a very clear and organised set of canon, and in a universe without time travel it's a lot harder to handwave things away. I'm active in the fan-editing community, and I ignore the official canon. For me, there are multiple canons: the original canon (the original three films in their original form), Lucas's canon (the six films in their present official form), the expanded universe, and two fanedit series which I follow: MagnoliaFan's (Episodes 1 and 2) and Adywan's (Episode 4 so far; he's working on 5 and plans to do all six). I acknowledge the existence of Lucas's canon, but treat it like fanfic. The same goes for the expanded universe, except that there are some works in it which I genuinely like without wanting to change bits (the TIE Fighter video game and Heir to the Empire are examples which I think are great but still fanfic). The fanedits are obviously fan works, but I consider Adywan's work to be superior fanfic to Lucas's own (and thus watch it in preference to the official releases), while holding the original, unaltered versions above all others as the ones that all the other fanfic is based on.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-04 10:17 am (UTC)I almost forgot to mention, that I don't count either of the present spin-off series as canon either, regardless of how many crossovers they do, and regardless of how much I enjoy seeing Captain Jack or Sarah Jane back on the show every now and again.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-04 09:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 12:13 pm (UTC)I use canon ideas to build on with my own imagination, but I'm very compfy with ignoring other parts completely.
For me personally there is more intriguing stuff in the show canon than in the comics.
What made me start with reading and writing fanfic was that I wanted the story to be different, to have stuff explored that was only hinted at. Doesn't mean I hate canon, means I couldn't get enough of parts of it and wanted storylines continued that where ended on the show. Also I love to see different perspective. For example I was never a big fan of Angel (the character), but reading fanfiction by people who loved him, made me see so much more layers and interesting parts of that character.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 12:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 01:38 pm (UTC)Canon schmanon.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 12:33 am (UTC)But basically? IMO, canon doesn't matter. Fanfic blurs the edges between what's interpreting it differently and what's changing it, and in the end, I enjoy having lots and lots of different possibilities, because it leaves room for lots of pairings and lots of personalities and lots of people and lots of fun.
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 12:46 am (UTC)I always thought canon arguments were very silly. It doesn't actually affect me if people consider something canon or not. Just don't get all evangelical on me and we're good.
The origins comics are definitely in my Buffy canon, and I like where season eight is going so far - but I have a lot to catch up on. Dawn is not a centaur yet.
(And Doctor Who - hah. Most of Big Finish is canon, most of the NAs aren't, Eight's comics are, the EDAs might be...)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 07:07 pm (UTC)it was fun to go back and read that debate. I felt so alone at the time, and in fact still sort of do, but my point all along was that the reader needs to be part of the equation; it is not about, or only about, the writer (or creator, if you will). I still feel that- you can read the debate on whedonesque from yesterday continuing the Willow gay/bi debate.
Thanks for mentioning me. :-)
Dana Lawrence (aka Dana5140)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 08:37 pm (UTC)As you can see, I am now convinced you are 100 percent correct - so there will definitely be no slapping. You're quite safe. :)
Thanks for commenting!
(How the heck did you find this, anyway?)
no subject
Date: 2009-07-31 09:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-01 07:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-03 02:20 am (UTC)I'm in general agreement with you.
There's canon, which is hard to dispute.
Then there's my canon, which basically means "the part of canon that I intend to pay attention to".
As long as you're aware that the latter is not the totality of the former (unless...it is), then it's cool.