Writing Dead Characters

[deird_lj]

In this post on gabrielleabelle's LJ, I was intrigued by this snippet of conversation:

angearia - "See, I'm happy that he's back. I want Spike alive (undead) and out there causing havoc as a bad, rude man."

gabrielleabelle - "Ah, but that's what fanfic is for! I have no doubt that if Spike's arc had ended (in canon) with Chosen, fanfic writers would still be writing happy, fluffy post-series Spuffy stories. We're just creative like that. :)"


Which I found interesting, because I wouldn't be nearly as likely to write post-series Spike fic if he'd stayed dead. I just wouldn't see it the same way.

So, I have made a mini poll, to see what others think...



[Poll #1513832]


Questions? Comments?

Comments

[angearia.livejournal.com]

See, in my mind, the characters are part of their canon (and I include the comics in canon). To me, fanfic that resurrects a character only lasts as long as I'm reading the story. After it's finished, I return to the norm of "Spike's dead and I mourn and my heart aches." I still mourn Cordy and Wes and Fred and Lilah. It doesn't matter if I'm reading a fic where they're alive and well. My knowledge of them is that they're dead and they're not coming back from that. It's one thing to know someone will die eventually because they're mortal. It's another to know exactly how they died - that makes it real. And in fiction, the reality of their death always casts a shadow on them for me.

I imagine it's similar to how people feel reading fic about Lorne. Andy Hallett's death affects the piece.

But then, this is partially about me. When I love characters, I love them. Their deaths are real to me and I really do grieve for them. So yeah, there's no coming back from death for me when it's in canon. Unless there's a resurrection.

[elisi]

Ooooh we agree! (Except for where the comics are canon.) But otherwise yes. If Spike hadn't come back on AtS, he'd have been dead dead, no matter how many resurrection fics I read. And that would have made me very sad.

This is also why I love the ending in NFA. They *probably* die - but there are a million and one ways to get them out of that alley alive. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Agreed! (And I don't mind about the comics thingie - I'm used to not being agreed with on that one. :D)

And you're so right about how the ambiguity of NFA seems dire, yet it also gives one hope. Love that. The ambiguity of life.

[ruuger]

What you said. The canons I like all have their tiny little spaces inside my head where the characters and the world are real - and when a character dies in canon, they die in that space too, and no amount of fanfic can undo it.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Word. You said that much more eloquently.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Exactly. To all of this!

[dipenates.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

It doesn't matter if I'm reading a fic where they're alive and well. My knowledge of them is that they're dead and they're not coming back from that.

Very well put. Now, next time someone asks me why Warren never dying or Cordelia having an open line to Angel matters, I'll just point them to this... ;-) Nah.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

I'm not exactly jumping for joy over the Warren thing. I fail to see what good he's brought to the mix, but I'm still holding out hope for a Willow & Andrew vs. Warren & Amy showdown... which I suspect is coming.

As for Cordy, I think it was a waste how she was used in AtF. I personally think her "off ramp" is being in heaven. It's what she deserves.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

For question one, it depends. If I'm writing something that follows on from post-"Chosen" or post-"NFA" canon, then whoever is dead is dead and whoever is alive is alive (depends, of course, on how long time has passed). I've rarely if ever explicitly brought someone back from beyond the grave, that I remember.

On the other hand, if I mean to write what-ifs of the "X never died in the first place" or "Y didn't survive episode Z" kind, then anything goes. But there needs to be a reason for it, and the changes should matter.

Unless it's all just for fun and I'm only trying to get to a punchline. :-)

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I resurrected Wesley for the Rulesverse, and I'm not entirely happy with it. I was going a little AU from Chosen, NFA was less apocalyptic, it's all there if anyone wants me to justify it. But still, it's the first time I've written a 'dead' character, and all the comics blurring of the definition of death doesn't count for me.

I have ticked many annoyances, but I suspect in the end I'm not consistent. I don't like reading a post-Chosen fic in which Tara wanders through and no one comments on it, but I would happily read an AU of the same scene (the Barbverse, for example, branches off at a specific point and that's fine by me). Internal logic matters to me most.

I really don't like resurrection fics much; it often seems to me that the character would be better off dead, and that needs to be very well written to engage me (Shapinglight's The Worst Journey in the World does it well, if painfully). If you resurrect someone, though, at least let it be for a reason.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of resurrection fics are hopelessly pointless - way more of a "damn, I really liked that character, let's have them wander around pointlessly for awhile!" than to actually tell an interesting story.

But there are always exceptions, and really consistent AUs that go somewhere specific can be excellent. And I can be cool with random combos of people surviving Chosen or NFA.

[mtgat]

I'm coming in from a different fandom, wherein a HUGE amount of the current 'fic is about resurrecting characters. I think a lot of it has to do with the quality of the show and the need to fix what's broken with the canon. If a character died and it was right for the character and the series, people won't be as likely to jump on the "Bring back Joyce, you bastards!" bandwagon. If it was handled badly, if it was gratuitous, then you'll see a lot more demand for a resurrection, and a lot more fic to scratch that itch. (The only Buffy fic I ever wrote brought back Tara. It was for a ficathon, though, so it was by request. *shrug*)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

My opinions are too varied to be contained by your flimsy little poll! :P

That is to say, in my vast, probably-will-never-see-the-light-of-day post-NFA fic featuring just about everyone, I resurrect one particular character (she may or may not be in my icon...). It isn't the point of the fic, but it is the point of her arc. Though I have to admit, I came up with her arc after I decided to bring her back (I missed her, okay?).

But I really think that's the only circumstance under which I would do that.

As for reading, I am annoyed if someone's inexplicably dead. Beyond that, it would depend on the writing: if it's good, but it's still not the whole point of the fic, I probably won't care, because the writing's good. If it is the whole point of the fic, but the writing is bad, I will be annoyed.

I also get annoyed by other, unrelated stuff. (Porn for porn's sake? Bad characterization? Character bashing? Too many cliches? Damn, I'm picky!)

I love this poll/discussion idea!

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

What she said.

*is feeling too lazy to do up her own comment*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Word. What she said.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah. Except, what's so wrong with cliches? Heh.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Cliches specifically? Nothing really as long as it's done well, I think. But cliches and bad writing go hand in hand, don't they? :P

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Eh, I'm just trying to be nice and find the thing that bugs me least on the list.

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

I'm not big on post-series fic at all, but I would probably only use living characters unless the dead character was central to the plot. (i.e. Tara comes back from the dead so Willow decides to dump Kennedy.) Reading them, I get pissed if a character is alive with not even a passing line of explanation. Like I'm just supposed to take it for granted that Tara's standing there while Buffy marries skinless Warren. *rolls eyes*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I'm okay with resurrections. If Joss does it, why can't we?

[gillo]

I work within TV series canon, so anything post-series has to take into account everything up to and including NFA as far as I'm concerned. I just about accept fic in which Anya or Amanda got out, as long as it's well-written, but Tara or Joyce in post-Chosen fics make me uncomfortable.

OTOH, I'm not wholly sure I could have borne to give up Spike if AtS5 hadn't happened.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I'm okay with resurrections in fanfic.

But there are some characters I wish had stayed dead in the comics. And others I wish had been brought back.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I'll accept an AU where things are different, if it's plausibly explained. But it's still AU in the end. My cast-of-thousands post-Chosen fic did not include Chao-Ahn, Amanda, or Anya. It never occurred to me that they could be there. That said, I'm on an AtS 5 AU trajectory wherein things will happen differently. (Mostly because of improved cooperation between W&H LA and the new Slayer's Council.) I may not ever write more of it, but it's in my head.

[deird1]

Wait - Chao-Ahn? Chao-Ahn didn't die, did she?

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Alas, I'm pretty sure she bought it in the Hellmouth battle. It's been awhile since I watched Chosen, so I could be wrong. (But it's unlikely, as I keep telling my kid. Someday she'll buy it.)

[deird1]

*googles*

The Buffy Wiki says she didn't, but that some of the books said she did... Weird...

[peroxidepirate.livejournal.com]

I had a hard time with the first question. I wrote some dead characters as dead. (http://peroxidepirate.livejournal.com/5765.html) As in, they're in the fic, but they're... ghosts? Angels? Something like that. And I'm still not sure whether to count Spike, Angel, and Gunn as alive or dead after NFA -- alive, I guess, but who knows?

But I'll never write a post-canon fic where Tara or Joyce or Fred is still alive, because in my mind, they just aren't.

I don't get annoyed by other people doing it, though, if they do it well.

[rahirah]

None of the above?

If I were to write post-series fic, I would have no compunction about resurrecting a dead character IF there were a really good story to be told about it. However, if I wanted a character who died in canon to survive, I would be far more likely to write an AU which split off from canon at some point before they died than to try to resurrect them. I made an exception for Buffy because we all knew she was coming back. But I really prefer that death mean something more than a minor inconvenience.

When reading fic, I much prefer that resurrections be non-gratuitous and in the service of a good story, but I have no objection to them happening, seeing as the Buffyverse is a place where magic exists, and several canonical resurrections have occurred.

[next_to_normal]

This. The major factor for me is "does it make for a good story?" If it's just about "well, I like that character," then write an AU or a fic set while they were still alive. I don't want to read a fic that just resurrects people willy-nilly. But if you can make the death and resurrection matter, then sure, tell that story. (That doesn't mean the resurrection has to be the whole story, but there should be a good reason the character needed to be resurrected.)

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

You know, I picked the first option, but really you needed one more before it: "I write canonically-living characters as having died prior to my post-series fic"!

I don't usually mind resurrection stories, but I prefer them to either a) be about the resurrection process, and then the fic ends, or b) have a really good reason for bringing the character back. "I brought Tara back because she has important information to deliver from beyond the grave" is good. "I brought Tara back because I believe Willow would do her dead-level best to restore her, and that's the point of the story" is good (even if I don't believe it much). "I brought Tara back because it sucks that she died (and now I'm not sure what to do with her)" is not good.