Swearing in Other Englishs

[deird_lj]

I recently realised something about writing different dialects.

You see, I’m an Aussie. My English is (sort of) a mixture of British English and American English – with a lot of Australian slang thrown in. It makes me a pretty reasonable Britpicker for American writers, and also a pretty good Ameripicker for British writers. But there’s one area I’m not very qualified to handle: swearing.


It’s not that I don’t know plenty of swear words. If you asked, I could list plenty of swear words for use by all kinds of American characters, or British characters, or pretty much anyone. But… I’m not entirely sure what they mean. Or – more precisely – I don’t entirely know what the characters mean when they use them.

A bit more explanation might be required. (Otherwise you’ll all think I’ve just got a crap vocabulary.)


I was betaing a fic for someone recently, in which she had an Australian character talking about an ex-boyfriend and using the term “that jerk Mike”.

I pointed out that Aussies don’t really say “jerk” that much, and after consultation with another Australian, offered the following alternatives:

“that idiot Mike” – which implies a very harsh opinion of Mike, and possibly a fair amount of bitterness, too

“that retard Mike” – still harsh, but she’s mostly over the whole thing

“that dickhead Mike” – she doesn’t really like him anymore

“that tosser Mike” – doesn’t like him, but more in an eye-rolling sort of way than a nasty way

“that bastard Mike” – affectionate, and possibly said with a smile

You see, if an Aussie calls someone a “bastard”, it’s not really that big a deal. Somewhere else? It might be hugely insulting – I have no idea.


American insults and swear words don’t tend to be ones I’d hear over here, except on TV. So I can generally (mostly) figure out how harsh they are, comparatively speaking, and when they’d be likely to be used.

British insults, on the other hand, are quite often the exact same insults used by Australians – but in a different hierarchy, with different ones being used to friends, strangers who cut you off in traffic, and deadly enemies.
I’m rather worried that, if I wrote a British character swearing, I’d end up with a swear word that was way too harsh – or, alternatively, extremely cute, but one way or the other, it just wouldn’t fit.



Thoughts?

Comments

[jl-in-the-lane.livejournal.com]

My favourite British swear word while I was over there was "PANTS!"
As in, "PANTS to you!"
Or, "Well, that's a bit pants."
Hehehe.
Sooo weird. I loved it.

......................................................

The ones that spring to mind are 'sod', 'bloody' and 'bugger'. 'Sod' doesn't get used here at all, but the other two aren't even seen as a problem, which gets our advertisers into trouble.
(...remember the 'Bugger' ad? Hehehe.)

I don't think we really use 'balls' or 'bollocks', either.

As for Americans, a few years back a US president touring here stuck two fingers up at some protesters and there was an enormous ruckus over it. I gather it was explained to him that Aussies see that one as a bit more serious.

And then there's the obvious comments like, "Sit on your fanny and root for your team!"
Um.
Yeah.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Um...fanny does not mean the same thing here as it does in the UK. That one probably gets more people in trouble when visiting than does almost anything else.

JL is Australian!

[jl-in-the-lane.livejournal.com]

Um...fanny does not mean the same thing here as it does in the UK.

Hang on... which country is the 'here' that you're writing from?

*looks at own comment* Darn. Perhaps I should have specified that I'm an Aussie?


"Sit on your fanny and root for your team!"

And I was writing that from an Aussie perspective making fun of US usage that sounds *doubly* appallingly dreadful here.

(I have no idea what 'fanny' means in the UK.
I don't believe they use the verb 'to root' similarly to USEnglish or AusEnglish. Their usage of 'to barrack' differs interestingly from Aussie usage, but it's not relevant to a discussion on swearing.)

Re: JL is Australian!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Sorry! I thought you were from the UK. Here, (US) fanny means your rearend, aka ass, butt, etc. However,the meaning in the UK, I've been told by some Scottish girls who came here to live for a while, is similar (the same?) as cunt. Apparently American boys have been known to get in trouble in the UK by suggesting someone "get her fanny out of that chair" or by tellin a girl she has "a nice fanny". It's even a somewhat old-fashioned but still fairly common girl's name here. :)

Re: JL is Australian!

[quinara]

However,the meaning in the UK, I've been told by some Scottish girls who came here to live for a while, is similar (the same?) as cunt.

Similar, but they definitely aren't synonyms. 'Fanny' is a tee-hee, slightly juvenile sort of word, which (to get technical) implies the vulva/female genitalia fairly generally. 'Cunt' is much more ugly and explicit word for the vagina, more equatable with a particularly harsh inflection of something like 'gash'.

Re: JL is Australian!

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

Was watching a British show the other night, "Misfits", and burst into laughter when one of the characters suggested a girl shave her fanny. (Guys sometimes have hairy butts, but I've never heard of a girl who needed to shave there.)

Re: JL is Australian!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

Good to know! :)

[immer-am-lesen.livejournal.com]

Ah yes, 'bastard' is very dependant upon context!
I do use it as mock-affection mostly- but if angry, and said with the right tone, "that bloody bastard!" works fine as a not-too-sweary swearing, for the likes of me. :-)

[nwhepcat.livejournal.com]

It seems, from reading I've done, that "cunt" gets more of an affectionate usage in the UK than it does in the US. Here it's like dropping the big bomb.

[quinara]

It's slightly more complex than that (as is true of a lot of British swearing) - it can be used affectionately, and I would probably find it less surprising to hear it used that way than as an insult, but that's really because it is a seriously strong insult and if it's used that way it generally implies a quite extreme level of anger/hatred (at least in my experience/understanding). I wouldn't expect it at a football match, for example, even if people are swearing at the players with a very high amount of vehemence (using words like 'fuck' and 'twat' and whatever).

Similarly with things like 'bastard', people will use it as a fairly strong insult even if they refer to their friend who's just been dumped as a 'poor bastard' five minutes later. There's definitely more than one axis to our hierarchy!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Surveys in Britain generally say that it's the swearword that makes more people cringe and look away than any other - though racial epithets have probably overtaken its position in recent years. Still, it's only 'affectionate' in the sense that any other extreme swearword can be affectionate between two friends. (Black Americans calling each other 'nigger' springs to mind here.)

I do think ther is a difference though: in American English, in my experience, 'cunt' seems to be regarded as a specifically gendered insult. It's only directed at women, and seems to carry the meaning "you're worthless apart from your genitalia" or something like that. In Britain, it's become separated more from its literal meaning, and simply carried the connotation "utter bastard" or "really hateful person". In fact, while in the US I gather it's considered a demeaning insult, in Britain it's more often levelled against powerful people who are abusing their authority. The policeman who gives you a speeding ticket when you were hardly over the limit is a cunt; the referee who awards a penalty against your team when anybody could see the other guy took a dive is a cunt.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

It is certainly not a word you would EVER use if your mother, boss etc was likely to hear - it is regarded as VERY crude.

Fanny is the most acceptable name for the vulva whereas cunt is probably the least acceptable, and the phrase "You cunt" makes me cringe even writing it.

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

This is probably going to spark an interesting and informative discussion. Would you mind cross posting it to riters_r_us? or allow me to? One thing I recall from a former conversation about this subject some years ago is that some expressions are not just different from country to country, but also from region to region. Those regional differences are fading due to TV and movies, but they are still there in some places.

[deird1]

Feel free to cross-post!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I suspect that if a British person used 'bastard' as an affectionate insult, it would be understood perfectly well but they might get teased for "pretending to be Australian".

'Tosser' sounds the least harsh of the insults you listed. I don't think 'retard' is used here much, but it might be among the younger and more Americanised generation. There's also 'berk', which is one of those words people use innocently until someone tells them its origin as rhyming slang, then sometimes they get embarrassed.
Berk = Berkeley Hunt

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

My only thought is: hey! I inspired someone's post!

I always get really happy when that happens. :)

[deird1]

Hooray!

[gillo]

Interesting. Here in my bit of England, "bastard" would depend on intonation - said viciously it would suggest he's pretty much irredeemable, said with affection it would be OK, possibly sounding slightly Aussie. "Bugger" varies hugely from area to area - a Geordie uses it as a term of endearment, while in some parts of the Home Counties it would be taken as obscene. Ditto "sod". "Retard" is something I've heard twenty-somethings use, but I find it offensive and avoid it. "Dickhead" could just mean he's done something stupid or could be nastier.

Racist abuse is more or less beyond the pale, especially "Paki", "coon", "wog" and "nigger", though that last is not as unsayable as it is in the US. "Fuck" is often used as a form of punctuation, especially in rougher society, but "cunt" is absolutely beyond the pale except as a really vicious insult.

As for American English, I've had several amused guests enjoy faggots with mushy peas in a local pub. And in Britain, "One thing I don't like about fags - all the butts you see in the gutter." has a totally different meaning!

[washa-way.livejournal.com]

American here: yes, "fanny" just means ass/ buttocks/ gluteus maximus/ bum in the States, and it means pudenda in Britain. "Cunt" is very definitely a harsh term, and is almost always used toward women.

Back in 1972, George Carlin identified the "heavy seven" as shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits. Since that time, I'd say that "tits" has become almost quaint, but still wouldn't be used during a state dinner. "Asshole" has probably passed it on the swearing scale.

Also, describing someone as "pissed" (which means "angry" here, as opposed to "drunk" in the UK) is somewhat more acceptable nowadays, though actually using it to describe a bodily function would be distinctly rude in most situations.

I actually used "sod" and "bloody" and occasionally even "bugger" when I want to swear but don't want to be overheard doing it. It's oddly satisfying.

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

'Shit' is regarded as a mild epithet by British nurses - 'Oh shit!' is so common both at work and at home that it's hardly swearing.

I also remember, as a teenager, a small boy from a devout Catholic family whose favourite swear phrase was 'Shit, shite and sugar lumps!'!!

[deird1]

Interestingly, I'd find "shit" much less offensive if said by someone with a British accent, as opposed to an American. Swear words said in an American accent come across as a lot harsher...

[deird1]

Racist abuse is more or less beyond the pale, especially "Paki", "coon", "wog" and "nigger"

Interestingly, while we do have some racial epithets that you just don't say EVER ("chink" and "abo" heading the list), "wog" is considered perfectly acceptable, for the most part. It tends to be seen as a fairly neutral term these days - on the same level as talking about "poms".
The other three you listed are words that don't seem to be used in Australia at all - at least, not that I've ever heard.


"Bugger" varies hugely from area to area - a Geordie uses it as a term of endearment, while in some parts of the Home Counties it would be taken as obscene.

Heh. We had an ad a few years ago that consisted entirely of lots of people saying "bugger". I can't imagine how that would go down in the Home Counties...

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

The other three you listed are words that don't seem to be used in Australia at all - at least, not that I've ever heard.

Well, there's the cheese...but we certainly don't use coon as a racial slur.

[deird1]

I don't even know who it'd be used as a racial slur for...

[jl-in-the-lane.livejournal.com]

Doesn't it get used in 'Forrest Gump' when the school is opened to black students? And Forrest thinks everyone's upset because raccoons are coming to school.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Agreed-there's a huge difference in the meaning of swear words between countries-sometimes there's a difference depending on which part of the country you're in.

Personally, I don't think I would feel comfortable trying to write a British person or an Aussie person swearing because the way things are phrased by them is ... almost like another language to me.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Hee! It's funny, but the strength of the alternates you listed is pretty much exactly opposite here in the States. "Idiot" is usually kind of tame, unless delivered with real vitriol, but "bastard" is usually used for people really disliked, and indicates heartlessness. It's a titch old-fashioned, though. "Asshole/asswipe" and "douchbag/douche" seem to be the top of the line these days, though I have a strong preference for "dick/dickhead". "Tosser" isn't used at all. In fact, I suppose "jerk-off/jerk" is the only masturbation-related insult in common usage here.

Still, it's very amusing to me that the scale is swapped between continents.

Another UK voice

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

I honestly think our swearing hierarchy is flattening out. Gill's right that the truly unsayable (in polite company) swearwords are all racial. An awful lot of other words depend entirely on context and voice to get their force. 'Bastard' for example can go from 0 to 100 on the insult scale depending on whether it's accompanied by a smile.

I remember my mum being very annoyed that 'fuck' had passed into common usage, because it reduced the 'proper' swearing possibilities. And she's a nice middle class middle aged lady.

I wouldn't say 'cunt' at work (or at all, for preference), but I've certainly said 'fuck' in the office without problems. It's possibly my mum had a point.

[klme.livejournal.com]

I think the meaning of 'Bastard' here (Aus.) is determined by the strength of the accent used to say it. If you use a real ocker accent and lengthen out the first 'a' it's more affectionate than saying it without the strong accent.
So: 'Jim you old bastard!' is perfectly fine, as is 'You bastard!' (said with a strong aussie accent), but 'I can't believe he was such a bastard to you' means something else.

[deird1]

True. I'd say the more ocker it is, the nicer the intent.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

Okay. So what's "ocker"? (Three nations divided...)

[deird1]

Okay, you know Crocodile Dundee? Or Steve Irwin? Or just about any other stereotypical Aussie racing round in the outback hunting things and saying "Crikey, mate!"?

They're ocker. And so's the way they talk.

Basically it means having a very broad Aussie accent, and being someone who's extremely Aussie. (In other words, almost the opposite of me...)

Interestingly, my accent - which usually gets fellow Aussies asking if I'm from England because it's so British - goes suddenly ocker if I start watching the footy. Most of us are capable of going ocker if we want to.

And klme's right. Steve Irwin saying "You old bastard" would be very friendly (and kinda creepy, since he's dead), whereas saying "such a bastard" in a more upper class Australian accent would sound much nastier.

[alwaysjbj.livejournal.com]

I think it really just comes down to context...I don't have an even remotely ocker accent (in fact most people here tell me I have an English accent), but I don't think anyone has any trouble knowing if I'm calling someone a bastard (or any number of other swear words that have different levels of harshness depending on the situation) in an friendly manner, or if I wish them condemned to the fiery depths of hell (generally saved for the Blues come State of Origin time *grin*).

[jl-in-the-lane.livejournal.com]

Most of us are capable of going ocker if we want to.


I believe there's a presenter called 'The Bush Tucker Man' who's as ocker as they come but whose accent when interviewed sans TV persona is unrecognisably posh.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Teehee! Everybody's cursing up a storm in here. :D

[deird1]

We really are. :)

[crazydiamondsue.livejournal.com]

Hi! Found this through poking around on delicious.

I remember years ago when I began writing fic being schooled by a British fan over misusing the phrase "take the piss." I am American (southern/midwestern/Oklahoman) and we the phrase "take the piss out you," which means to tease or jokingly mislead (similar to "taking the piss," I gather.) I had Spike say, "We're just taking the piss with you," which made my British beta howl. ;)

I made a post on vulgarities (from an American standpoint) a few years ago, if you'd like to check it out: Fun with Cursing.

[deird1]

Thanks for the link! Will definitely check it out.


It's fascinating how different expressions can be in what is technically still the same language...