deird_lj: (Default)
[personal profile] deird_lj
So apparently, Buffy should have killed Spike in season 4 – except the season was badly plotted, and the writers were trying to get Spike into the show as a regular so she couldn’t kill him – but otherwise she absolutely would have killed him rather than helping him.

This seems to be a common opinion around LJ. And I completely disagree.



For the most part, it’s all about The Initiative. An episode in which Spike is captured by the government, and then escapes. Why does he? Because the Initiative are incompetent… and kinda evil.

To the Initiative, there are two ways to classify things: human, or hostile. Either you’re a normal human, or you’re something nasty that should be locked up or killed. At most, it might label you according to species – Polgara, vampire, werewolf – but then they all get treated the same way regardless of species. The only distinction that really matters is the aforementioned human or hostile.

Buffy and Riley discuss this in New Moon Rising:
“You sounded like Mister Initiative. Demons bad; people good.”
“Something wrong with that theorem?”
“There’s different degrees of…”
“…evil?”

They don’t see a distinction between Random Snarly Demon, and Oz. Both exist to be experimented on.
(Also – they’d have no problem killing Clem. Or Lorne. See? I said they were evil.)


This attitude doesn’t just make them evil. It also makes them incompetent.

In Doomed, we get to see the Initiative dealing with a new threat:
“Three metres tall, approximately 100-120 kilograms, based on my visual analysis.”
“Special hazards?”
“Unknown. Probably nothing we haven’t handled before. There is no pattern we can discern yet, so we got to assume that it’s on a basic crush-kill-destroy.”

Whereas the Scooby Gang identify it as a Vahrall demon (“Slick like gold and gird in moonlight, father of portents and brother to blight; limbs with talons, eyes like knives, bane to the blameless, thief of lives.”) and conclude:
“This thing isn’t digging up the bones of a child for fun.”
“Well, a demon’s got some pretty hilarious ideas about fun.”
“Bones of a child, though. I saw that. An ancient ritual – uses the blood of a man, the bones of a child, and something called the Word of Valios. It’s all part of a sacrifice – the sacrifice of three.”
“Let me guess – ends the world?”
“Well, yeah. It’s not big with the details, though. It doesn’t say how the world ends or what the ritual entails exactly.”
“The sacrifice of three… three people are going to die?”
“No, they won’t. Because claw boy is not getting all of his ingredients. We have to find that third one, the Word of Valios, and keep him from getting it.”

The Scoobies have a plan to save the world – while the Initiative are busily running around town, looking for a “pattern-less” demon to lock up in the cells. If they were the only ones on the job, the world would have ended right in the middle of season 4.


The same goes for Spike. If the Scoobies hear that Spike is in town, they instantly drop everything and start focusing on stopping him. To the Initiative, though, he’s just hostile; vampire; number 17. They lock him up, forget about him – and because they don’t realise who they’ve captured, they don’t realise how much they need to watch him. So… he escapes.


Buffy, on the other hand, is not incompetent. Or evil. So when Spike ends up on her doorstep, she evaluates him individually, assesses who he is, and decides the best course of action – which is definitely killing him. Or at least letting him die:
“What part of ‘help me’ do you not understand?”
“The part where I help you.”
“Come on, I’m par-boiling out here.”
“Want me to help make it quicker?”

And then:
“What are you saying?”
“I’m saying that Spike had a little trip to the vet, and now he doesn’t chase the other puppies anymore.”
“So you haven’t murdered anybody lately? Let’s be best pals!”



Buffy has no particular interest in keeping Spike alive. But she doesn’t tend to kill demons who don’t pose a “deadly threat to humanity”. She doesn’t like Spike – she hates him – and she knows how evil he is, but right now, he’s not a threat. So she’s happy to let him die, live, or anything really, as long as it doesn’t interfere with her Thanksgiving dinner.

But then… Spike makes a deal with her.


This has happened before. In fact, in one of my fanfics, I called Spike the “Alliance Forger”, because he is constantly making deals with Buffy.

The first one was way back in Lie To Me, when Buffy and Spike made a brief “let the stupid vampire worshippers go, and I won’t kill your girlfriend” deal. And then there was the alliance in Becoming, and the temporary truce in Lovers Walk. Spike has no problem temporarily being on Buffy’s side – and neither does she, actually.

Spike has gone back on his word quite a few times (mostly by violating the “get out of town and never come back ever” clause); Buffy never has. If she’s made a deal, even with her worst enemy, she sticks to it.

So she sticks to this one. The deal is basically: Spike gives information on the Initiative, and in return, Buffy takes Spike in (temporarily) and gives him blood and so forth. And definitely doesn’t kill him… for the moment, at least.

Buffy doesn’t go back on her word.


It’s meant to form a contrast. The Initiative, who are increasingly portrayed as the bad guys, are seeing vampires as impersonal objects, to be given numbers rather than names. And at the same time, the Scoobies are hanging out with a vampire who is definitely not just a number. As Willow puts it:
“It’s ookie. We know him. We can’t just let him poof himself!”

The good guys might kill vampires – but they also know them. They don’t just see mindless beasts roaming the town. They see an organised group, who need to be monitored – who need to be researched. They need to know who the leaders are, and what they’re planning. They need to know where each vampire stands in the pecking order, and how likely they are to have powerful friends backing them up. They need to know when the next apocalypse is likely to occur.

For the Scooby Gang, the “hostiles” are very personal.


Once the deal is made, Buffy sticks to it to the letter. She frequently jokes about killing Spike, but she never does.

In Something Blue, she tells him:
“Oh, make a move. Please. I’m dying for a good slay.”

And yeah – if he went for her, she’d kill him. Happily. But for the moment, the truce still holds.

(The same thing happens in Out Of My Mind. Buffy’s observation on Spike getting the chip out is “That means I’m allowed to kill you.” And she certainly plans to kill him – once she’s allowed to again.)


So, what does Buffy get out of this? Information.

Spike has information on the Initiative, on Adam… He knows what Dracula is like, where Harmony is living, and how the Slayers died. He’s very useful. And he’s making Buffy better at what she does.

The Initiative will always be incompetent, because they’re flying blind. They see a demon and go “Hostile, six feet tall, big claws.” Meanwhile, Buffy knows its name, purpose, and hideout – and now she’s got even more info, because Spike’s around and willing to share (for a price).


Killing Spike wouldn’t just be welshing on her side of the bargain. It would also be giving up a valuable resource.



In short, there are a number of reasons why killing Spike might be a good idea. But something Buffy would do? I just don’t see it.


Date: 2010-04-04 09:58 pm (UTC)
quinara: Spike and Buffy approaching 'their' tree in AYW. (Spuffy tree)
From: [personal profile] quinara
So apparently, Buffy should have killed Spike in season 4 – except the season was badly plotted, and the writers were trying to get Spike into the show as a regular so she couldn’t kill him – but otherwise she absolutely would have killed him rather than helping him.

This seems to be a common opinion around LJ. And I completely disagree.


You had me with this, because - yeah. But I agree wholeheartedly with your proper argument too. Buffy and Spike until S5 is one long story of each finding the other more useful alive than dead. (Or, well, I suppose from Spike's side there's a large chunk of killing!fail as well... ;) )

Date: 2010-04-04 10:43 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (hug (anya))
From: [personal profile] deird1
Hooray! People who agree with me!

Date: 2010-04-04 10:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com
This makes sense. Too much sense.

I just barely finished writing a scene where Spike gets dusted on Giles' doorstep in 'Pangs'. (Though the Initiative was leaving town, so that particular bit of information was devalued.) Now you've got me feeling all grumbly about it.

*grumbles*

Date: 2010-04-04 10:44 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
*points and laughs*


Err, or maybe...

I'm very very sorry. I'll never ever write sense-making meta again.


(Tune in for my next meta: why Buffy hates all people with Nike sneakers.)

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From: [identity profile] me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-04-04 10:53 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-04-04 10:20 pm (UTC)
rahirah: (Default)
From: [personal profile] rahirah
Agreed that Buffy keeps her word (at least, in the show - in the S8 comics, she kills demons she's made deals with without a second thought). On the other hand, Spike proves several times, notably in making his deal with Adam and in OOMM, that simply having a chip in his head does not make him harmless. And I wouldn't have faulted Buffy in the slightest if she had staked him, then, or at any time, really, up to "Intervention."

Date: 2010-04-04 10:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
Who did she make a deal with in the comics and then kill? My brain is slow today.

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Date: 2010-04-04 10:38 pm (UTC)
next_to_normal: (The Slayer)
From: [personal profile] next_to_normal
Yep, this is what I was going to say. I can't see her staking him unprovoked, but Spike definitely does some provoking. Especially with OOMM, which falls into the period when the Initiative is no longer an issue but before she needs his help to protect Dawn from Glory, so he really has no useful purpose to keep him alive.
Edited Date: 2010-04-04 10:40 pm (UTC)

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Date: 2010-04-04 10:45 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
True. But post-truce, I still don't think she'd do it unless he was actually killing people.

Date: 2010-04-04 10:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] angearia.livejournal.com
This is a stellar post. Well played.

Date: 2010-04-04 10:45 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Thanks!

Date: 2010-04-04 11:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mymatedave.livejournal.com
Good point. That does make sense from a Buffy point of view, but the big problem I have is that he has a far bigger bodycount than any serial killer I can think of and definitely plans to kill again.

I agree with your argument, but the show did kinda gloss over the above facts.

Date: 2010-04-04 11:23 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
True, but he can't actually kill again at the time...

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From: [identity profile] speakr2customrs.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-04-05 09:44 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-04-04 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
Yep. I agree that the non-killing of Spike in S4 is completely consistent with the Scoobies' (and Buffy's) past behavior.

...though I think Buffy should have killed him in S5 after Out of My Mind when he proved he could still be a threat despite the chip. However, I can fanwank that away by saying she was too preoccupied with her mother to bother.

Date: 2010-04-04 11:24 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
*nods*

Out Of My Mind is about the only situation where I'd believe Buffy killing him.

(On the other hand - what Quinara said, above.)

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From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-04-04 11:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2010-04-04 11:52 pm (UTC)
gillo: (spirit of Spike behind Buffy)
From: [personal profile] gillo
Well-argued and very convincing. There's also the indefinable bond which really does stop her killing him, even when he asks her to.

Date: 2010-04-05 12:11 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
(Yeah, but that's later. Post-soul, and so forth.)


Glad you liked this!

Date: 2010-04-05 12:50 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] menomegirl.livejournal.com
Very interesting observations, sweetie. I don't disagree with you at all but I would like to say that it took the gangg some time to get where they were in season 4 re: not all demons were evil.

Plus, I think the Watcher's Council wasn't much different from the Initiative. Yeah, they knew the names/habits of vampires and demons but their goals weren't that far apart.

Date: 2010-04-05 01:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] diamondtook862.livejournal.com
This is a great argument! I'm adding it to my meta hall of fame. :)

I think this also gets at a phenomenon that bothers me in some fic- the assumption that Buffy hasn't killed Spike because she's secretly soooo attracted to him (cheekbones of doom y'know). I do believe there is chemistry (though I think it's completely sublimated into disgust until Intervention), but if love won't stop her from killing Angel, I don't easily accept that attraction would keep her from killing an (icky!) vampire like Spike. Buffy's morals and keeping her word being the reason, that I can believe.

Date: 2010-04-05 09:08 am (UTC)
ext_15439: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com
Why didn't she kill Harmony then? Or why didn't she chased Drusilla after Crush? These were two evil full murderers which got away!

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Date: 2010-04-05 02:20 am (UTC)
snickfic: Buffy looking over her shoulder (Spike hate you)
From: [personal profile] snickfic
I just wanna add: If the simple fact of Spike being evil isn't sufficient reason to stake him, then the fact that he is often irritating and a jerk doesn't make up the difference. We don't kill humans for being crude boorish scumbags, and it's not why we stake vampires, either.

I just needed to get that off my chest.

Date: 2010-04-05 02:32 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
YES.

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Date: 2010-04-05 05:35 am (UTC)
silverusagi: (Default)
From: [personal profile] silverusagi
All very good points!

Date: 2010-04-05 06:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rebcake.livejournal.com
Well said.

It must be the company I keep, but I can't imagine that you will get too many arguments against this premise. Buffy is the Queen of Judgment Calls. In her professional life*, she often makes calls that doesn't initially seem like the most effective, but they almost always turns out to be right. Keeping Spike around wasn't the easiest choice she could have made, but she looks for the right one, not the easy one.

*In her romantic life, the judgment calls could use a little work.

Date: 2010-04-05 08:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] riccadonna.livejournal.com
I'm so pleased with this post and comments! Just the perfect thing to wake up to and laze about on a holiday.
I should add a series of "I agree", "Yes, that!", "Well said" and "A very good point", to too big a number of posts, so I'll just keep smiling happily to myself, the way crazy people do.

Date: 2010-04-05 09:09 am (UTC)
ext_15439: (Default)
From: [identity profile] ubi4soft.livejournal.com
Great meta. And goes well with all the comments.

Date: 2010-04-05 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] penny-lane-42.livejournal.com
My personal argument isn't that Buffy would have staked him...just that she wouldn't have been wrong to do so.

But other than that, I agree with everything you said--and very well-said it is, indeed! The thoughts on OOMM in the comments are great, too.

random commenter

Date: 2010-04-05 06:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rowanda380.livejournal.com
Oh I completely agree with you...I have no idea why anyone else would think otherwise, especially since a Spike that can't kill people is useful.

Date: 2010-04-06 12:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] neutralalienist.livejournal.com
Very much agreed. It wasn't simply a possibly-moral act - it was a logical, beneficial one.

And you know, it always bugged me that the Iniative kept treating vampires as animals. You've captured a dozen at least, you haven't clued in that they're sapient?

Date: 2010-04-06 08:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trepkos.livejournal.com
I agree with all your points.
It's always going to be harder to kill someone when you see them as a person - and Spike is definitely a person.
Edited Date: 2010-04-06 08:20 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-04-07 12:56 am (UTC)

Date: 2010-04-07 05:00 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com
Um...buh? Who's been saying that Buffy should have offed Spike in s4?

<--is way out of the loop.

Anyways, all excellent points there, and I agree 110%.

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