Losing the Soul and Losing the Plot

[deird_lj]

Okay, so I got snarky...



[Poll #1598628]

Comments

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

This should be a ticky box poll.

For Spike I wanted to say poetry and get it back, but I went with the latter.

For Angel, I'm sure he would notice first.

For Buffy, I went with temper.

For Miss Kitty, I desperately wanted a ticky box, but I went with maniacal meowing.

Mr. Gordo shall lead the Epic Quest while Andrew provides epic narration.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

Crap! We were so close to having identical answers, but then you chose meowing maniacally for Miss Kitty whilst I chose Acathla! Curses!!!

*shakes fist*

[me-llamo-nic.livejournal.com]

Does this mean we're no longer the same person? Did Toth get us with the separator?

TOOOOOOTTTTTHHHHH!

*shakes fist*

[next_to_normal]

Oooh, ooh! I picked the paw prints! And all the other same answers. GABS STOLE MY BRAIN.

[willowy-dawn.livejournal.com]

Gab is forbidden to steal my brain. The moment she opens my skull it will suck HER soul out, hah!!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

For Spike losing his soul, I think it depends on how he loses it. However, I expect Evil Unsouled Spike to be sarcastic about how pathetic his souled self was, rather than trying to go and get the soul back.

In 'Awakening/Soulless' Angelus seemed to be aware immediately of what had happened. It's possible someone who can magically detect souls, like Anya and possibly willow, might know at the same time as him.

The leader of the epic quest would really depend on whose soul was lost. If it was Miss Kitty's I suspect Andrew would be the leader because he and Dawn would be the only people who took it seriously. Anyone else, and usually Buffy would be the leader simply because that's what she does.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

On the other hand, it was Evil Unsouled Spike who went to get the soul in the first place...

[rahirah]

Shhhh! Everyone's supposed to forget about that part!

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Frankly, after all the trouble he went through to get it (hey, Africa and no airplanes!) I'd think Spike would be pretty damn hacked off that someone took it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Hacked off enough to go on a killing spree against the people who were responsible for taking it, perhaps? :D

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Don't think he can get to IDW since he's a cartoon (and a poorly executed one at that)

[rahirah]

Maybe. I can see lots of possible outcomes in a situation like that, which is why I find the character interesting.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

You know, I read killing spree as implying killing humans. A killing spree where he slays a bunch of vampires or demons who stole his soul... not so bad.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Sure, in a very specific situation after a lot of unique events that are unlikely to be repeated at some random time in the future...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but Spike is stubborn. First thing Angel ever described him as -- stubborn.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

All it would take is Angel saying "so much for you earning your soul" and Spike would be determined to get it back.

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

If it was Miss Kitty's I suspect Andrew would be the leader because he and Dawn would be the only people who took it seriously.

*wants this fic*

[scarlett2u.livejournal.com]

Me too!!! How awesome would this story be? And could there be a subplot where they crusade for the liberation of poker kittens? Call me crazy, but it just might work.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Dude, I know all about kitty evil peeing on random objects (that aren't random and tend to be important things like my bed). Evil Soulless Kitty connects directly to bladder.

[washa-way.livejournal.com]

If a cat loses its soul, how can you tell?

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

It stops rubbing on you and gives you the Evil Glare of Death.

[rahirah]

Damn, all our cats are soulless!

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

They so are!

[willowy-dawn.livejournal.com]

It looks up at you haplessly, licks you obsequiously, wags its tail when you open the door, and barks.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

I'm not certain Angel would realize immediately after losing his soul. At the end of "Becoming" he seemed to be in a daze after being re-ensouled, and was not aware of what had happened until he presumably reviewed his memories later. This gives the impression that Angel is actually sent off to limbo while Angelus is active. Of course, the inconsistent portrayal in "Orpheus" mucks this up a bit. *ponders*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

That means more he's confused when he gets his soul back. But when he loses his soul, he's the first to know immediately what happened.

This gives the impression that Angel is actually sent off to limbo while Angelus is active.

Ah, you're going with the Angel and Angelus are two different people thing.

[bluemage55.livejournal.com]

"Ah, you're going with the Angel and Angelus are two different people thing."

That, or they're at least two separate sides of a split personality (Jekyll/Hyde style), if the mental struggle in "Orpheus" in any indication. There's also the fact that when knowledge of the Beast was erased, Angelus was unaffected due to being absent from reality when the spell was cast.

This contrasts distinctly with Spike, whose post-ensoulment persona is the same as before except with a(sometimes humorously denied) conscience.

[urania-calliope.livejournal.com]

Man, if Spike lost his soul and then WENT TO GET IT BACK that would make him, officially, the most epic character ever.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

I could see Spike losing his soul and then not trying to get it back. It would require a lot of story, though. He's still self-conscious as hell, and there's nothing wrong with his memory.

Personally, I've never come across a cat with a soul.

[glorious-pancake-morning.blogspot.com (from livejournal.com)]

Duuude, I know you're Christian and all, but I just don't understand the whole "soul" thing anyway. Having one doesn't make you Not Evil, and as Spike shows, not having one doesn't impair your ability to feel love or compassion or have a kickass personality.
The whole "quest to regain soul" thingy is all just a big Yellow Brick Road in my opinion... the Tin Man had a heart all along, all he needed was for someone to tell him so.

[(Anonymous)]

i'm also not christian, but souls in the buffyverse aren't a religious thing, they're a morality thing. because of his love for buffy, spike developed a sense of morality through trial and error, and he felt terrible if she or people she loved got hurt. he got his soul back when his version of morality seemed to not be enough. i agree that the soul didn't change his capacity for love or compassion for those he loved, but it did give him a much bigger conscience - instead of just feeling bad for hurting buffy, he also had to deal with guilt for all the people he'd killed since the 19th century. so the soul wasn't very good for his mental health, but it definitely meant something.

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

Spike: would go on a killing spree. And also shopping spree. Possibly at the same time.

(I have a Theory about his quest for a soul: it wasn't actually for a soul, not specifically. He just wanted to be one thing or another, not stuck in the middle. He thought it would be simpler than it really was, that getting the chip out would make killing Buffy easy, or that getting a soul would automatically make him good - for the world, for her. Except it doesn't work like that.

I could ramble here about psychology and morality and what a soul seems to ultimately mean in this universe but no one wants that.

Suffice to say, without a soul, Spike suddenly has no idea why he should feel bad about slaughtering a bunch of strangers, or what was so important about having one in the first place.)

Angel: would notice first but I chose Spike anyway, because it's my ship, yo. :p I do wonder, though, if Spike would realise or if he was just talking out his ass. He certainly didn't realise the reverse in China, but then he was a bit distracted. Of course, then there was the submarine...

Buffy: lost her rocket launcher. :( Miss Kitty is taking good care of it, though.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

that getting the chip out would make killing Buffy easy

Except he's been over killing Buffy ever since he fell in love with her. The chip didn't create those feelings. And he could've killed her all throughout Season 6 ever since the first moment he could hit her. So... that really doesn't make sense to me. He didn't need to go on a soulquest to kill Buffy.

I agree about him being caught in between states. Can't be a monster, can't be a man. But his going on the soulquest wouldn't make him a monster again. He'd already changed himself past the point of being a monster through his actions for the past two years. The chip never stopped him from being a monster. Spike changed himself.

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's why I said 'thought'. I think he figured that if he was allowed to truly be a monster again, he could lose those feelings, it could just be vampire vs Slayer again. It wouldn't have worked, certainly.

I don't think Spike stopped being a monster, per se? The chip forced him to interact with certain humans on a level beyond fun and food, and he was able to connect to them in a way he usually wouldn't. I think the attempted rape was the first time he truly felt any guilt, and that's what really scared the hell out of him, pushed him over the edge in to needing to make a change, one way or another.

I wish we'd been able to see him continue struggle with that without the soul, really.

[fenchurche.livejournal.com]

I'm curious, how would getting the chip out have made it easier to kill Buffy?

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

It wouldn't, really. I think he hoped it would - that allowing him to be a monster would set their relationship back to the way it was. The way it should be. All of the hate and none of the love. He might even convince himself he could fight to kill on the way back. And then, of course, when they finally met face to face? No.

[next_to_normal]

If Spike lost his soul, it would be pretty much like this.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Neat poll.

The last one--I was torn. Of course Spike would take initiative--it's his bloody soul after all. But I think Andrew would be close in line for next :P But OTOH, Angel would of course go on the trip, and refuse to let Andrew participate.

Also, if the comics were written with an iota of respect to the real canon (yes, real, damn it), then of course Spike would get pissed, and go back and get his soul, because they (whoever) didn't have the right to take it from him in the first place.

[snickfic]

I really wanted to say shopping spree, just because.

Otherwise, I got nothing. I leave the Internet alone for less than 24 hours, and what happens? *rolls eyes*

[willowy-dawn.livejournal.com]

Just as Spike constructed himself as a vampire, so he constructed himself back towards being human, only lacking the spark as catalyst to precipitate the growth that he couldn't force simply by will.

So losing his soul would make no difference to who he's become with it. Unlike Angel, who needs his soul the way an addict needs a program to stay off the addictive substance or behavior.