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[personal profile] deird_lj
There is a reason why sequels flop, McDonalds succeeds, blurbs are important, and Dawn Summers was hated by many fans when she first appeared.
That reason is known as The Vegemite Effect, and I am here to explain it to you.

Of course, to explain The Vegemite Effect, I must begin by explaining Vegemite.
Vegemite, according to Wikipedia, is a dark brown savoury food paste made from yeast extract. It originated in Australia, and is now considered a national icon, but it has quite definitely failed to catch on with the rest of the world (despite being a yummy substance of goodness that should be known as the most awesome food in existence… but I digress).
Actually – no. I don’t digress. That last point was important. Why is it that Vegemite, which is really really delicious, is so despised by everyone who didn’t grow up in Australia? Is it racism? Aussie tastebuds being numbed by all the beer drinking? Cultural snobbery?
None of those, actually. It’s the salt.

I’ve met a number of Americans over the years, and no matter what I said or did, they all hated Vegemite with a firey passion. Until, one day, I suddenly realised how to get them to like it.
It goes something like this:
“Have you ever tried Vegemite? Yeah, it's this really salty stuff that you eat on toast, and it's pretty salty. You should try some - it's really nice, and really salty. Did I mention it's salty? Anyway, I'll make some toast, and spread some of this really salty Vegemite on it, and it'll taste kind of salty...”

As a general rule, I need to mention the word “salty” at least six times to get an American to like Vegemite when they first try it. Why? Because pretty much every time they have ever eaten something that you spread on toast, it will have been sweet. Jam, jelly, honey, peanut butter - all fairly high in sugar. And eating Vegemite for the first time is like putting a spoon of sugar in your mouth, and discovering it was actually table salt. A horrible experience.

This is what I call The Vegemite Effect: No matter how good something is, if you were expecting something else, you'll hate it.

It’s not just the horrible taste of salt, either. Expecting something to be salty and finding out it’s sweet will get the same reaction of disgust. Because you were expecting something else.

How can we see this principle in action? Well, staying with the food theme for a moment, let’s look at McDonalds.
I like good food. And, no matter what way you look at it, McDonalds does not sell ‘good’ food. But when I spent three months in Munich, I quite often ended up eating at McDonalds – even though I was surrounded by places selling authentic Bavarian cuisine. Why? Because as delicious as the Bavarian food might be, I hadn’t eaten it before, so I didn’t know what it would taste like until I started eating. Surrounded by a world providing me with more new experiences than I could handle, there was something incredibly comforting about ordering a Quarter Pounder meal, and knowing exactly what it would taste like before I even opened the bag.
People like food to taste like they think it will. This is why McDonalds will never go out of style.

As well as going to Munich, I’ve also been to Adelaide. Yes, that’s right – I braved the culture of a town a whole day’s journey away from Melbourne. It was pretty fun, actually. But their bus tickets sucked.
After getting home, I had a protracted argument with a South Australian friend about this issue. Surprisingly, she couldn’t see the obvious stupidity of their bus tickets – instead, she kept maintaining that Melburnian tickets were the crappy ones.
It took several hours before we realised that this was purely Vegemite Effect. As wonderful as Melbourne bus tickets are, an Adelaidian won’t see them that way, because they’re not like the tickets back home. And no matter how many times the virtues of Adelaide’s tickets are explained to me, I’m still going to be put off because they’re not like tickets are supposed to be.

Let’s move on to the much more interesting area of mass entertainment.

There is a very good reason why Star Trek: Enterprise didn’t do well. Rick Berman has been quoted as saying he was trying to make the show “dramatically different” from the normal Star Trek style. Well surprise, surprise – the fans didn’t want something different. This was supposed to be a prequel for the show they already loved, and it was messing with their ideas of what the backstory should look like.

Ever bought a cd by a band you loved, even though you hadn’t heard any of the songs on it yet? Chances are you probably liked it better the second time you played it. Because bands try to re-invent themselves slightly with every new album, it takes some time to get past the fact that it doesn’t sound like the old album did. Once you do, you might love it. Or you might hate it. But when you listen to it again, it will at least sound like you think it will – and that jarring Vegemitey reaction will be gone.

The Empire Strikes Back is widely considered as the best film in the Star Wars universe. But, interestingly enough, when it was first released, it wasn’t very well liked. People were expecting it to ‘taste’ like the original Star Wars, and when it tasted all salty they got annoyed. It was only when they rewatched it on its own terms that they realised how awesome it was.

There’s a reason that I don’t like the Harry Potter movies: they suck.
But as well as that, there’s the fact that scenes aren’t playing out the way I picture them. And Hermione’s hair is different to what I thought. And the Weasley twins should have dark red hair. And when they say “Expecto Patronum” they’re emphasising a different syllable to the one I do. And Lupin shouldn’t wear cardigans. And Voldemort’s eyes…
You get the idea. A lot of this stuff has nothing to do with the quality of the film, and everything to do with things being different from the way I thought they’d be. That’s pure Vegemite.
But the movies are still crap.

This is why blurbs, summaries, or previews (depending on the medium) are important. You don’t want to give away the plot, but you want the readers/viewers to know what they’re getting into – so that they won’t go in expecting one thing and then get smacked in the face with The Vegemite Effect halfway through.
Firefly was a victim of this, actually. Fox wasn’t quite sure how to market it, and they got their previews wrong. Viewers who might have liked it didn’t tune in, and viewers who did tune in watched an episode, went “Eww. It’s all… salty…”, and never returned.

Angel season 5 almost fell to The Vegemite Effect too. It was so dramatically different from the previous seasons that it took viewers quite a while to make the jump into the ‘nice Wolfram & Hart employees’ mindset. Thankfully, the fans had been through enough of the show by that time that they were willing to give it a chance, and wait until they got used to the new flavour.

The Vegemite Effect is weird, actually: the more popular and long-running a show is, the more likely it is to go all Vegemitey at people.
The reason? It’s been on for a while, so viewers know what they think it should be like. And it’s got a lot of viewers, so they can all talk amongst themselves, and reinforce each other’s expectations.

Take Buffy, for instance.
I started watching this show after it had already finished, so when I read episode reviews that people had written while it was still going, I got to see them from a having-seen-the-whole-thing perspective. And they’re fascinating.

It starts in season four: “Remember when Buffy was in high school? That was so much better...”
And continues in season five: “Remember when Buffy was in college every episode? That was so much better. And before that, when she was in high school? That was the best...”
 
By the time season seven arrives, it's got six other seasons to be compared with, and they're all different from season seven. It doesn't matter how good season seven is, it will never have as good reviews, because it's not what people were expecting.
 
This is even more noticeable because, by the time season seven started, the internet fandoms were out in full force, dissecting every element of Buffy the moment it arrived. And the fandom would make predictions about future episodes, establish a consensus between themselves about what they expected to see, and then complain when that wasn't delivered because “we weren't expecting this!” Thus the enormous attention paid to “the Scrappies”. Even by episode 14, some reviewers are still complaining that we aren't seeing enough of the Scrappies, even though we haven't seen them since episode 1, and the show never promised more of them. Regardless of how good the episodes are, at least three quarters of each review will be spent lamenting the absence of the Scrappies, and complaining that the show isn't delivering what the fans expected.

This, in my opinion, is the main reason why people tend to think the show wasn’t as good in the later seasons. It’s just getting Vegemitey.

The same thing happens with the introduction of Dawn.
She appeared at the start of season 5, so viewers were pretty confident that they knew how the storylines tended to go. And then Dawn arrived.
Not only did her appearance change the storylines, it also changed the characters around her.
Buffy, instead of being a slightly spoiled only child, was now wishing that she would get spoiled like her sister. And then, later in the season, morphing into a parent.
Xander, rather than being the slightly goofy guy, was now the cool guy who younger girls might have a crush on.
And so on.
All this stuff was really great - it showed us another aspect of the characters that we would never have been able to see. But it wasn't what we were expecting.

You’re trapped, really. As a writer, if you change things around occasionally, people will start complaining about the Vegemite everywhere. If you keep everything the same, you end up with Friends.

Of course, tv shows have an extra issue to deal with: multiple writers. Because each writer brings different things to the show, individual episodes will be markedly different from each other – and you’re in danger of viewers being Vegemited every single week.
No matter how good your show runners are at fitting it all together, the different styles will still make themselves known: I defy anyone with sense to confuse a Jane Espenson-written episode with one by Marti Noxon.
This is why I tend to pay close attention to the opening credits, these days. If I know going in who the writer was, I’ll have a much better idea of what to expect – and I’m much less likely to encounter The Vegemite Effect.

A change of medium can do it, too.
There are a lot of valid reasons not to like the Buffy Season 8 comics. Whether it be giant girls, bank robbers, or just a refusal to believe that someone could survive being skinned alive – it’s your choice. But quite a few people stopped reading early on, because the story was in comic book form. And it’s not that they think comic books are crap, exactly. It’s the fact that they’ve never really read comics before, so they don’t know how stories are supposed to ‘flow’. The story just isn’t hitting the same ‘four acts with ad breaks’ structure, so they can’t get into it. That’s Vegemite for you.

The Vegemite Effect is the reason franchises tend to work. If you go to a Die Hard movie, you expect to see Bruce Willis blow things up, lose his shirt, swear at idiot policemen, and say “Yippee Ki Yay!” a lot. And lo and behold, the franchise delivers. No Vegemite required.

It’s also the reason sequels tend to do badly. Studios know that, if they change anything, they risk viewers being Vegemited and annoyed – so they don’t change anything. And what happens? Everyone who sees the movie walks out complaining that “it’s just a rehash of last time”. You can’t win, really.

Of course, once you get past the Vegemite obscuring your vision, you might discover that the story really is crap, that the characters really are that uninspired, and the writers really should go into hibernation until they learn how to make a show that doesn’t require a lobotomy to tolerate. But you should always be conscious of your own potential to be Vegemited. Never let an unfamiliar flavour drive you away from something worth watching.
’Cause sometimes? Vegemite can taste pretty fantastic.



 
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Date: 2008-06-15 12:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] timeofchange.livejournal.com
That's just brilliant. Love it.

Date: 2008-06-15 12:20 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Thanks!

Date: 2008-06-15 12:49 am (UTC)
snowpuppies: (Default)
From: [personal profile] snowpuppies
Fantastic.

Let us all give Vegemite a second go. And if it sucks, well, it sucks, but hey, we might just be surprised.

I've gotta say, it's really helped me with characters like Kennedy and Riley - on second go, as long as I'm not wearing my "Kennedy sucks" or "Riley's a weenie" blinkers, I learn something new about the characters. And you know what else? I found things to like about them.

The problem we get into today is that there is so *much* media, so many characters, so many forms and outlets of entertainment, that we don't *have* to give something a second chance if it's not as expected.

We just change the channel.

:(

Date: 2008-06-15 02:30 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
I've gotta say, it's really helped me with characters like Kennedy and Riley - on second go, as long as I'm not wearing my "Kennedy sucks" or "Riley's a weenie" blinkers, I learn something new about the characters. And you know what else? I found things to like about them.
Same with me. I HATED Angel season 4 the first time I watched it - it kept changing the group dynamic, and Connor was whiney, and Jasmine was boring, and... yeah. I thought it sucked, basically.
But after rewatching it a couple of times, I've started really liking it. It gives a lot of new insight into the characters, and it has some really fun bits, too.

We just change the channel.
Exactly.
It's great having SO MUCH STUFF we can try watching, but it does mean you end up with a very low tolerance for stuff that doesn't grab you right away.
Like Babylon 5, for instance. I've been assured that it's really entertaining and well-written, but I tried one episode, was unimpressed, and moved on...
It's sad, in a way.

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Date: 2008-06-15 01:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ikona-rakasha.livejournal.com
that is so true. it's like when i read this new book by jaquline carey, i was crushed and hated it. why because it was totally different from the lush historical fantasy she had been writing before.

lets see if a few years in japan sorts me out lol


Date: 2008-06-15 02:07 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Exactly.
That's why when Agatha Christie started writing romance novels, she used a pseudonym. Because she didn't want her readers to pick up the new books thinking they'd be murder mysteries...

Date: 2008-06-15 01:58 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] washa-way.livejournal.com
There's a lot to this idea.

Of course, it's entirely possible for something spread on toast to be not merely unfamiliar, but just plain gross.

Like, say, whipped lard in aspic.

Which is roughly how I'd characterize Riley.

Date: 2008-06-15 02:25 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Hee! Good point!

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Date: 2008-06-15 03:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] carmarthen.livejournal.com
Fabulous metaphor. Today I ate a cherry that I expected to be a grape (I love both, but I love cherries more), and it took me several seconds to figure out what the hell was in my mouth. Very disorienting.

One of these days I need to try Vegemite.

Anyway, I think you make a very good point (although, oddly, I instantly LOVED S5 of Angel--but I think that was because I watched the show for the crack, and that was the most cracktastic).

Date: 2008-06-15 08:33 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
One of these days I need to try Vegemite.
When you do, make sure you spread in on THINLY. This is not peanut butter. Spread it about as thinly as you can. (And by the way, it's kinda salty...)

I instantly LOVED S5 of Angel
So did I! Of course, the reason I started watching Angel in the first place was because I wanted to see Spike and Angel trying to work together in season 5. I think I was pretty much going to love it no matter what.

Glad you found this interesting to read!

Date: 2008-06-15 04:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rockeandroll.livejournal.com
That is a brilliant metaphor and makes a lot of sense. I'm really, really big on summaries and blurbs and their importance. LJ fandom newsletters are really useful and I appreciate them, but it drives me crazy that most of the ones I use don't give summaries for their fics, just title, author, rating and pairing. Same for most places on LJ with fanfic, come to think of it: they give me the vital statistics, but no actual blurb, which makes it hard to decide which fics to read in my very limited online time.

Though the most useful thing I got out of this was how to make people like Vegemite. I NEVER KNEW it was a salt thing. Because of course I just don't realise that in most of the world you only eat sweet things on toast. I always thought foreigners hated Vegemite because they didn't know the right way to eat it and spread it on too thick.

(And getting on public transport interstate is SO CONFUSING. I like the Adelaide bus system, except that their airport bus is also a regular bus so as well as heaps of people with suitcases (and no baggage racks!) there are people trying to get down to the shops. Must be a pain for them.)

Date: 2008-06-15 05:52 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ib-stormcaller.livejournal.com
Is it possible to have it too thick?

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Date: 2008-06-15 05:32 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spuffyduds.livejournal.com
THIS IS COMPLETE GENIUS.

Also, I really like Vegemite.

Date: 2008-06-15 08:36 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Aw, really? Shucks...

Vegemite is rather awesome.

Date: 2008-06-15 08:11 am (UTC)
ext_2138: (callisto (royalacid))
From: [identity profile] danamaree.livejournal.com
I lived in England for a year, had constant vegemite moments, about everything.

And felt incredibly guilty about it, because of course England is going to be different, every country different, but it's hard to let go of home. And of course English public transport sucks. (but even they think it does, but it's a strange matter of pride for them, 'oh yay we suck, we're not transport efficient like the Germans, because we're English, and that's a very English trait!'). Or something.

Date: 2008-06-15 10:51 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
It is awfully hard getting used to a different country. No matter how much you're enjoying it, it's still all... different...

'oh yay we suck, we're not transport efficient like the Germans, because we're English, and that's a very English trait!'
*sporfles*

Date: 2008-06-15 08:13 am (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Bravo!

I was struggling with my review of BtVS issue 15 and wondered why it works so well for new fans while veterans get annoyed. Your explanation helped me a lot.

Thank you.

Date: 2008-06-15 10:51 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
I'm glad you found it useful!

Date: 2008-06-15 10:22 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sueworld2003.livejournal.com
Very interesting essay, and I agree wholeheartedly with most of your points made.

"It starts in season four: “Remember when Buffy was in high school? That was so much better...”
And continues in season five: “Remember when Buffy was in college every episode? That was so much better. And before that, when she was in high school? That was the best...”

By the time season seven arrives, it's got six other seasons to be compared with, and they're all different from season seven. It doesn't matter how good season seven is, it will never have as good reviews, because it's not what people were expecting."


Strangely enough even at the time I didn't really think that way. I've always taken on board that every season would be different up to a point and that the characters wouldn't stay the same, but develop and grow through the years as they should do.

My difficulty in enjoying/excepting season 8 doesn't even stem from not being familiar with the comic medium. I used to be a huge Marvel comics fan, and collected them every since I was a child, so I know how good they can be in the right hands, and so in a strange way thats what disappointed me about how 8 turned out.

I took issue with the large gaps in logic that Joss has already said that he probaly will not bother explain in every instance, and the fact he has made the story arcs so 'out there' that you just cannot take them seriously in the slightest, which is disappointing to say the least.

So to cut a long rambling explanation short, you could say Joss's Vegemite' put me off. *g* Not because it was new and different, but because I think it isn't all that well written, sadly.

Date: 2008-06-16 10:33 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Strangely enough even at the time I didn't really think that way. I've always taken on board that every season would be different up to a point and that the characters wouldn't stay the same, but develop and grow through the years as they should do.

Definitely a good perspective. Sounds like you aren't likely to be very vulnerable to any Vegemite hanging around.

I took issue with the large gaps in logic that Joss has already said that he probaly will not bother explain in every instance, and the fact he has made the story arcs so 'out there' that you just cannot take them seriously in the slightest, which is disappointing to say the least.

My thoughts exactly. I can cope with them, as long as I think of them as utter crack fic...

I'm glad you found this essay interesting!

Date: 2008-06-15 11:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com
Interesting theory...but once you get past the Vegemite effect, you're still left with the inescapable fact that Season Seven of BtVS is a badly written piece of crap. The writers could not and cannot expect anybody to tolerate watching most of the regulars -- the characters we DO care about -- get marginalized in favor of a bunch of imported guest stars like the Potentials, Andrew, or Robin who the audience does not and will not care about, especially when everybody suspected this was going to be the last season anyway. When it's the last season, the writers' first obligation is to the existing characters, especially given the previous season's efforts to tear them all down -- Season Seven didn't spend remotely enough time building them back up. Factor in IL's lack of chemistry with AH, the forced nature of W/K, Tom Lenk's complete lack of any talent whatsoever, the desperate attempts to find a spin-off, how plot threads introduced in one episode were dropped in the next, and worst of all, how many characters' characterizations were dictated by the needs of the story rather than their natural characterizations dictating how the story went -- and it doesn't matter how much sugar or salt you smother it in, season seven still tastes like shit.

Date: 2008-06-16 10:34 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Like I said, The Vegemite Effect doesn't actually take away the fact that some stuff? Really is that crap.

Can't say I agree with you on this specific instance, but I can see your point.

Glad you found this essay interesting!

Date: 2008-06-16 02:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dreamincolor.livejournal.com
As a random side note, my mother was, and still is to this day, convinced that Vegemite is made of bugs. No amount of ingredient reading will convince her otherwise, as she's quite sure that the real Vegemite down under is composed mainly of squished crawlies..

Anyway, back to the Vegemite effect.

The same thing happens with the introduction of Dawn...Not only did her appearance change the storylines, it also changed the characters around her.
Yep, I'm definitely guilty of Vegemitey-bias right there. It took me ages to reach any level of fondness for Dawn - though in hindsight, she really did show us sides of the others that we might never have seen. Hmm..

How interesting. I'm off to let this idea marinade.

Date: 2008-06-16 10:39 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
the real Vegemite down under is composed mainly of squished crawlies

Ewww... I hope not. I would say definitely not, but it occurs to me that I haven't actually read the ingredient label before. Maybe I should check it before I eat any more of the stuff...

It took me ages to reach any level of fondness for Dawn

Same with me and Connor.

though in hindsight, she really did show us sides of the others that we might never have seen.

Like Tara as a mother. I loved seeing that.


In other news, you talk about ideas "marinating". I do that! (Although it's now got a bit ridiculous: I let plotbunnies marinade for a while before writing them... and the notebook I write them down in is called my "bunny boiler". Yes, I'm very silly.)

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Date: 2008-06-16 10:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bookishwench.livejournal.com
This was really, really well thought out (and also explains why I felt an overpowering need to eat at McDonald's in Paris at one point, to my complete chagrin).

I agree that the Vegemite effect does explain a lot of fan reaction to some things. Of course, it's also possible for the writers to over "Vegemite" something to the point where it's so disorienting it would actually be easier or more logical to create a new show/book/comic/whatever than to try to morph the old one into their new vision, which tends to be when viewers wander far from the fold. Personally, I think that's why season 7 kind of went down the wrong pipe for a lot of us. There were times I honestly didn't feel like I was watching BtVS anymore but rather another show that happened to have most of the same actors and similar sets.

Oh, and I agree about Firefly being weirdly marketed because essentially FOX was desperately confused/Vegemited (or didn't care to illuminated themselves) about what the show was, even to the point of thinking it was like sitcoms that lacked a seasonal plot-arc and believing there was no problem showing episodes out of order.

I'm now curious what the Vegemite effect of the new Indiana Jones will wind up being... Hmm.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:13 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
why I felt an overpowering need to eat at McDonald's in Paris at one point, to my complete chagrin

I know! You feel so WEIRD eating Maccas when there's all this wonderful food around... But it's strangely compelling.

it would actually be easier or more logical to create a new show/book/comic/whatever than to try to morph the old one into their new vision

American tv tends to suffer from this problem a lot, IMO. Shows keep going and going (and going...) until they lose all their audience. Most would be a lot better if they quit while they were ahead...

I'm glad you found this interesting!

Date: 2008-06-16 10:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] electricalgwen.livejournal.com
I could never figure out my mother's love for Marmite, being a honey fan myself. Older and wiser now, I realize it doesn't always have to be sweet. Nice analysis here, and I expect I'll put the phrase 'Vegemite Effect' to good use at some point!

(Up till now, our household equivalent has been named after a friend who hates raisins because once as a child she ate a cookie in which she was expecting chocolate chips, and got raisins instead. Personally, I can't hold grudges that long, particularly with raisins.)

Date: 2008-06-17 10:14 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Older and wiser now, I realize it doesn't always have to be sweet.

It took me a while to catch on, too...

Glad you found this interesting to read!

Date: 2008-06-16 10:24 pm (UTC)
ext_4047: (dean munching delicious)
From: [identity profile] nomelon.livejournal.com
I think I love your brain. I also think this is maybe the greatest metaphor of all time. I'm going to be wandering around with a smile on my face for a while.

BTW, when I was in Oz I found that I only liked Vegemite on toast with melted cheese on top, and when I discovered that, I couldn't get enough of it. I'm sure there's a great metaphor in there about liking something your own way, or coming at things from a new angle, or never saying never... or maybe I just really like cheese on toast.

Um.

:D

Date: 2008-06-17 10:15 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
I think I love your brain.

Aw, really? *blushes*

Vegemitey toast with melted cheese is the ultimate food, in my opinion...

Date: 2008-06-17 01:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] a2zmom.livejournal.com
Fantastic metaphor! One that I will definitely put to use.

Although I also note that it doesn't really apply to me. I'm one of those people who will eat just about anything and I'm also one of those people who are always willing to go where the writer wishes to go as long as the story hangs together. (Which is why I hated season 7 of Buffy because the plot didn't have even a modicum of sense.) I don't think there were ever any characters on Buffy or Angel that I loathed although there were plenty that I was more interested in than others.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:18 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
I'm one of those people who will eat just about anything and I'm also one of those people who are always willing to go where the writer wishes to go as long as the story hangs together.

I'm a fairly picky eater, myself. Hmm... I wonder if there's a correlation between picky eating and picky tv-watching?

Which is why I hated season 7 of Buffy because the plot didn't have even a modicum of sense.

Personally, I loved season 7. But then, I'm a Red Dwarf fan: coherent plot isn't really high on my list of priorities...

I'm glad you found this interesting!

Date: 2008-06-17 08:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rachelmap.livejournal.com
Vegemite on toast... and a little butter.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:18 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
...and the toast has to be REALLY hot.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:49 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] caira.livejournal.com
No, no, no . . . the proper way to introduce someone to Vegemite is to say, "yeah, it's just like Nutella, here, have a big spoonful!" :P

(Seriously? Good points. Although the analogy breaks down when the new thing fails at being what it was trying to be. It's the difference between someone not liking their toast because they spread on too much Vegemite, and someone not liking their toast because they spread on garden fertiliser.)

Date: 2008-06-17 10:20 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
No, no, no . . . the proper way to introduce someone to Vegemite is to say, "yeah, it's just like Nutella, here, have a big spoonful!" :P

That's just mean...

It's the difference between someone not liking their toast because they spread on too much Vegemite, and someone not liking their toast because they spread on garden fertiliser.

Good point. Some things really DO taste that disgusting. "Big Brother Uncut!" for instance.

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From: [identity profile] caira.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-06-18 08:33 am (UTC) - Expand

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From: [personal profile] deird1 - Date: 2008-06-18 10:34 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2008-06-17 02:00 pm (UTC)
shapinglight: (effulgent)
From: [personal profile] shapinglight
Yes, I think I can remember seeing the Vegemite effect (or Marmite effect, as we would probably call it here in the UK) in action many times over the course of watching BtVS. Basically, people want what they want and they don't like change.

An awful lot of season 7 dislike in this thread. I liked it a lot myself, but realise I'm probably in a minority. Weirdly, it's one of those aspects of season 7 that grate most on people - the Potentials - that I now find myself least minding (not enjoying, but least minding) in the comics.

Am not quite sure why that is, but maybe it is the Vegemite effect again, because at least the Baby Slayers are familiar. What I can't stand are all these fairies and pixies and so on that are suddenly cluttering up the place,

Sorry. Should have said, great essay. Enjoyed it a lot.
Edited Date: 2008-06-17 02:01 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-06-17 10:27 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
or Marmite effect, as we would probably call it here in the UK

Hee! Good point!

An awful lot of season 7 dislike in this thread.

There is, rather.

I liked it a lot myself, but realise I'm probably in a minority.

*joins you in the minority*
I think I'm in an unusual position: because I watched the whole show so quickly (7 seasons in five weeks), I didn't really have time to get used to any particular season before I hit the next one. So I got a pretty un-Vegemited look at it all.

What I can't stand are all these fairies and pixies and so on that are suddenly cluttering up the place.

Agreed. It's so radically different from the demons running around Sunnydale... I miss kitten poker.

And you're right - to a certain extent, my Season 8 dislike is pure Vegemite. It's a different story from the one I loved so much in the show.
(But I still think the comics are absolute crack...)


Glad you enjoyed reading this!

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Date: 2008-06-17 06:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lit-gal.livejournal.com
This is a brilliant explanation of a simply fact of psychology. I loved this.

Date: 2008-06-17 10:21 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Thanks!

Date: 2008-07-11 03:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spectralbovine.livejournal.com
This is a great post. Very well put!

And now I know to expect that vegemite is salty.

Date: 2008-07-11 03:43 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
I'm glad you found it interesting!

More Vegemite!

Date: 2008-07-25 01:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] alistra.livejournal.com
(Here through [livejournal.com profile] snowpuppies' rec)

This was very fitting and interesting to read, and I agree with you on many points of this, so I hope you won't be insulted when I chip in with my own two cents: =)

As I read it, you are, like me, not from the US, so maybe we have a different (slightly more detached?) perspective.
What you wrote about things having to stay the same to keep their viewers felt very true. On the other hand, I find that having seen quite a few US shows over the years (I was and am a big BtVS fan, for example) they patterns become too obvious.
Not so much Joss ones, though, by now a lot of shows have just become plain predictable, even new ones.

German shows are pretty much shit in general, nobody dares to produce something new or different, if they don't dub american shows, they take the same idea and remake it, ten times worse, with german actors. (Horrible! They tried their own low budget version of Lost [involuntarily hilarious], the Office [not quite as bad] and Ugly Betty [have seen neither orig. nor remake]. Probably a lot more.)
My point though, is that I am pretty much sick of the current US shows. I would love something different, something more Vegemite! =) Which is why - for now - I discovered UK shows for me. Maybe that'll grow old, too, but for now it's new. =)

And if anything could confirm your opinon, look at the reactions to "Dr. Horrible's Sing-along-Blog". All I read was outrage!
Here (http://alistra.livejournal.com/275832.html) is my entry about it if you are interested.

Thank you for posting this, it was a great read. Sorry for the long rambly comment. :">

[Edit:] Also: Some of the fans rather reminded me of Steven King's Misery: They'd rather smash their author's kneecap before accepting that he's exploring new ways. XD (Kidding! Sort of.)
Edited Date: 2008-07-25 01:22 pm (UTC)

Re: More Vegemite!

Date: 2008-07-26 08:38 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Faith (thought))
From: [personal profile] deird1
German shows are pretty much shit in general, nobody dares to produce something new or different, if they don't dub american shows, they take the same idea and remake it, ten times worse, with german actors.

Heh. You should see Australian shows. Just as bad. well, mostly

I would love something different, something more Vegemite!

Absolutely. There's a fine line between "too different" and "just different enough", though - and I think producers tend to be so scared of going over into "too different" that they play it safe and just reproduce the same show, over and over again...


I'm glad you found this interesting!

Re: More Vegemite!

From: [identity profile] alistra.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-07-27 10:11 am (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2009-01-15 12:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] botias.livejournal.com
Excellent observations! It seems that the Monty Python catchphrase: "And now for something completely different" had practical utility as well as humorous. Excellent observations, I know the Vegemite Effect is why I read some types of genre fiction. They are not generally 'good', but I get just what I expect.

Date: 2009-01-16 03:40 am (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Glad to hear you found it interesting!

I know the Vegemite Effect is why I read some types of genre fiction. They are not generally 'good', but I get just what I expect.

Same reason I watch sitcoms...

Date: 2009-01-18 02:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thismaz.livejournal.com
*laughs* I love that idea. I think I'm going to have to adopt it. The Vegemite Effect *g* This is a really entertaining description of a very common reaction. Thanks.
(Personally, I love Vegemite, more than Marmite *g* It's sweeter.)

Date: 2009-01-18 09:17 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
Thanks!

(Isn't Vegemite yummy!)

Date: 2009-02-04 01:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com
How late am I on checking out links? Very, very late. :)

This is, frankly, quite brilliant. And explains a lot of the resistance to changes in tone of the show. "Oh, it just doesn't feel like Buffy anymore." I'm too sick to say much more of any interest, but I have to comment on this...

There is a very good reason why Star Trek: Enterprise didn’t do well.

Yep. It's cause Berman and Braga are idiots and decided that it wouldn't be Trek. They didn't even have "Star Trek" in the title (Therefore, I don't consider it Trek at all).

Yes, I am a bitter Trekker

Date: 2009-02-19 09:42 pm (UTC)
deird1: Fred looking pretty and thoughful (Default)
From: [personal profile] deird1
How late am I on checking out links? Very, very late. :)

Don't worry, I seem to be just as late replying to them...

Glad to hear you found it interesting!
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