Enemies In Love

[deird_lj]

I think I've figured out why I love the Spuffy relationship so much more than I like Buffy/Angel.

And it's quite simple, really, because it's the same reason that I like almost all the couples I'm madly shippy about.

One's good, one's evil, and they're in love anyway.

It seems to be a fool-proof way of making me like a couple: put them on opposite sides, and then have them fall in love.
And that's definitely got to be the main reason I'm into Spuffy, because if you look at most of the other couples I like, they all fit the same pattern:

Darla/Angel - She's evil, he's good, and they just can't help themselves.

Wes/Lilah - Same deal.

And then there's Elizabeth/Darcy, Tru/Jack, Buffy/Faith, Angel/Lindsey, Wes/Illyria, Lilah/just-about-anyone... even Mal/Inara fits the pattern. Sure, they're not a straight good/evil pair, but they are very clearly on opposite sides - and they're still in love.

And as much as I liked Buffy/Angel, it was basically a good person in love with a reformed person. Which is fine - but not nearly as interesting as a good person in love with someone who's flat out evil.
The Buffy/Spike relationship, on the other hand, is insane. People just aren't supposed to fall in love with their arch-nemesis. Spike is horrified when he realises he's falling for Buffy, she's horrified in return, they both know how ridiculously stupid a relationship would be... and yet...

This is why, as much as I go nuts for Wes/Fred, I'm even more nuts about Wes/Lilah - and downright thrilled when Illyria comes along, because suddenly the relatively straightforward Wes/Fred relationship gets turned into another good/evil pairing. It's awesome!

This also applies from a friendship point of view. As much as I enjoy Crichton and D'Argo as friends, their friendship is nothing compared to Crichton/Scorpius. Ditto with the Doctor/the Master, House/Wilson, and, mostly inside my own head, Spike/Angel.
I just love it when two people are working from such completely opposing perspectives, and yet they keep being friends, because when it comes down to it, they can't not be.

This is why my version of Tru Calling will always include a very twisted Tru/Jack relationship, why I rewatch that phonecall between the Doctor and the Master again and again, and why my absolute favourite moment in the whole of Angel is Wes growling "He's necessary - for fighting people like you," and then wrestling Lilah to the floor...

*happy sigh of shippiness*

Questions? Comments?

Comments

[gabrielleabelle.livejournal.com]

*I have no Spuffy icons. Alas*

I wonder if that's a variation on the "love-hate" or "opposites attract" dynamic there. Obviously, it's taken to an extreme with having the partners being out-and-out enemies, but I definitely see the pattern in your preferences. :)

I've considered often why I do like Spuffy. I really don't ship much at all. Anywhere. In any fandom. The only other shipper card I carry is Xena/Gabrielle. So I guess I'm just not that kinda of fan.

And I obviously don't think Buffy/Spike is tru wuv forevah!!! or any nonsense like that.

But I adore it because it's interesting and unlike any other couple I've ever seen. It goes through so many stages. From out-and-out enemies pre-S4 to a forced truce in S4. Then S5, there's a beautiful arc with Spike trying to prove his devotion to Buffy despite being a monster, and her eventual acceptance of his help. S6, though, with it's gender role reversal in having Buffy being the instigator and aggressor (and abusive party) in the relationship while Spike is the enabler is absolutely fascinating to me...despite being upsetting.

But I think it's the final stage of their relationship in S7. When they've been through everything else, and they know one another completely and still accept and love each other. They support one another and give each other comfort. If their relationship had started out like that, I'd be bored to tears. But they earned it through everything they went through before, so I love it.

My, I went on for a bit, didn't I? tl;dr: Spuffy is different, dynamic, and interesting. That's why I love it. :)

[deird1]

*I have no Spuffy icons. Alas*

I do! Feel free to gank my two - just credit whoever-it-is-I've-credited...

But I adore it because it's interesting and unlike any other couple I've ever seen. It goes through so many stages.

Isn't it interesting?
This is why I'm not very into fanfic pairing them up in the earlier seasons - because it misses all those different stages.

But they earned it through everything they went through before, so I love it.

*happy sigh* Ohh... Aren't they just lovely? *'nother happy sigh*

From Laney

[(Anonymous)]

To what does 'Fuffy' refer?

I can't remember who D'Argo or Scorpius are...

WHICH PHONECALL?!?!?!? Did I miss something?

[deird1]

Relax - you missed nothing. I'm talking about the phonecall from Martha to her brother that gets interrupted by the Master. And then Ten grabs the phone from her...

I can't remember who D'Argo or Scorpius are...

(From Farscape, but I'm assuming you figured that bit out.) D'Argo is big beefy warrior with tentacles. Scorpius is evil guy wearing a black mask - in this case, I'm talking more about imaginary!Scopius, who lives inside Crichton's brain, and even though they don't like each other much, they sort of depend on each other for survival, and tend to hang out a lot.

To what does 'Fuffy' refer?

Fuffy is the standard smushy name for the Buffy/Faith ship.
As a general rule, the fandom world is divided into two groups, who sort of interact as follows:

Group A: "Yeah, but Fuffy isn't canon."
Group B: "Oh, come on. It's so canon. It's blatant."
Group A: "Well, true, yeah, good point... but it ISN'T REALLY!"

The screencap in that icon is one of the best arguments the Fuffy-is-so-very-obviously-canon group has.

In this case, it's being used because Faith, as a character, was put in the show to be a representation of Buffy's dark side. She is the quintessential AntiBuffy.
So my icon is about the most relevant one I could use...

From Laney

[(Anonymous)]

I don't remember that phonecall.

I am HORRIFIED at the thought that my brain is missing some Masterly action.

I feel a strong urge to watch all the episodes with him in it all over again, pronto...

I've always wondered who that gorgeous girl in your icons was...

[deird1]

Wait - which gorgeous girl? I have several.

Gorgeous blonde girl would be Buffy - or possibly Tara.

Gorgeous brunette girl would be Faith - unless it's Dawn.

Gorgeous brunette in glasses is Fred - or once, Anya.

Gorgeous redhead is Willow - who, in one icon, doesn't have red hair.

Plus there are numerous Farscape ladies making their way into icons as well.

It's all a bit confusing, really...

From Laney

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, yeah, sure, whatever.

OF COURSE it's Faith.

[mauvedragon.livejournal.com]

I like fictional bad boys more consistently in fandom than other male characters. Angel as a character generally bores me. He stays too angsty.

I must admit I like Spike/Buffy (the blend of the names just makes me wince) because of the kinky undertone of violence in the whole dyanamic. Also that first sex scene totally rocks.

I like Wes/Lilah but that's more to do with what Lilah is like than Wes.

[deird1]

See, I like Angel - as long as he's being silly, or clumsy, or awkward, or petty, or whimsical... The moment he gets serious, I stop paying attention.

As far as smushy names go, I generally make fun of them. But "Spuffy" is one I don't mind that much.

Also that first sex scene totally rocks.

It totally does.

No love for Wes? Ohh...

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

I think it comes down to the fact that conflict is more interesting, and a divide like that is a very easy way to have it. It's also a wonderful way to explore the two characters - their morals, their indecision, all of that delicious inner conflict. (Well, in this case, Buffy's morals and Spike's bewilderment and frustration.)

I liked Buffy/Angel well enough on the show, and I felt for them, but I was never very invested - because they seemed more in love with the idea of each other, and while their connection was very deep, it wasn't very identifiable. (And, in the long run, I think she was far better for him than he ever was for her.) I'd be more interested in them now, I think, after both having grown apart from each other, into more mature people. At the time, Angel frankly didn't have as much of a personality.

Epic romance and soul mates and all doesn't really interest me, as much as, well, people, and you get that more in enemy ships too, I think.

My favourite sorts of ships are friends turned enemies - Doctor/Master, yes, and Dumbledore/Grindelwald, and Xavier/Magneto. When there's still a lingering fondness, an old respect, that they can't quite rid themselves of, even as they fight brutally. Of course this will vary with just how different they are, and how mentally stable. (Hi, Master.) And Angel/Spike, sort of! Although that ship had to go through a lot of changes as we learned more about their history.

...That was a bit long, wasn't it. > >

[deird1]

Long is good. We like long around these parts...

they seemed more in love with the idea of each other ... in the long run, I think she was far better for him than he ever was for her

Absolutely. And absolutely some more.

and Dumbledore/Grindelwald

Ackk! Knew I forgot someone!

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

Hooray! I am a rambler. (Especially since I've been rewatching Buffy - up to season three, now.)


Obviously my favourite ship is the one that was not actually in the books. :p

Also, since I was going to ask and forgot - what do you think of Buffy/Angelus?

[deird1]

Ooh! Interesting question!

Evil!Angel in love with Buffy would annoy me like nothing else - but this ficlet by snowpuppies is just superb...

Mostly, I think that the closest evil!Angel could get to being in love with Buffy is the sort of mad-stalker-killing-your-friend's-fish scenario we had in season 2 (although I do think he was in love with Darla). And there's no way I can see him actually trying to be with Buffy while soulless - so it could never really fit my favourite couple style.

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

:D

Oh, yes. More in obsession - as Willow put it, Buffy is still the only thing he thinks about, and that was true in season two.

And. Wow. Ick. Yes, that. This is a pairing made to be disturbing - interesting, but...disturbing. If it doesn't send shivers down the spine it's not really working.

And! I also think he was in love with Darla. In fact, I think remembering himself killing her was part of what made him so...batshit insane in season two. (Which would explain why he never mentioned her, at least.)

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

I wonder how this fits in with your Dawn/Andrew thing. I suppose they are rather opposite-y, if not exactly enemies. ^-^

I do pretty much agree with this. It works for the Spuffy pwns Bangel argument.

But at the same time, I'm a really big Willow/Tara shipper, and opposites? Enemies? Not so much.

[deird1]

Ha! I wondered if anyone would mention that one!

Dawn/Andrew doesn't seem to fit my pattern. It's actually the one ship that isn't good/evil that I can get intensely passionate about.
While I'm also into Willow/Tara, Cordelia/Dennis, Giles/Joyce, and so on, they don't matter to me quite as much as the others do...

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

Hee! I'm smart! *does a dance*

Also, Cordy/Dennis? LOL, cute.

[dreamincolor.livejournal.com]

It seems to be a fool-proof way of making me like a couple: put them on opposite sides, and then have them fall in love.

With you all the way.

And at first I always start thinking that our generation is just crazy, but then I realize that it seems to be an age-old trick.. Even Romeo and Juliet had the opposite-sides thing going, if not in a slightly different way. It's a dynamic that's just too good to resist!


And that's definitely got to be the main reason I'm into Spuffy,

Spuffy seems to be one of the few ships that gets almost as much attention in fandom as it did in canon, if not more so. And although I was never crazy about it myself - for whatever reason Spike's romanticism just irks me..I fail at being romantic - I can completely see why. They're the epitome of 'one's good, one's evil, and they're in love anyway.' Definitely one of Joss's better moves fan-wise.


Wes/Lilah...Buffy/Faith, Angel/Lindsey, Wes/Illyria, Lilah/just-about-anyone...even Mal/Inara

Yes, yes, and more yes. Are we shippy soul-mates? (Especially the Lilah/anyone.. Not like I would ever invent strange, non-canon Lilah relationships..nooope.. -cough- LilahCordy,LilahFred -cough-)


This also applies from a friendship point of view. House/Wilson, and, mostly inside my own head, Spike/Angel.

Heck yes to both.


my absolute favourite moment in the whole of Angel is Wes growling "He's necessary - for fighting people like you," and then wrestling Lilah to the floor...

-Purrs loudly and sighs happily-

[deird1]

It's a dynamic that's just too good to resist!

It really is...

Spuffy seems to be one of the few ships that gets almost as much attention in fandom as it did in canon, if not more so.

Heh, yeah. Very easy way to start a flame war. This is why, personally, I rarely admit to being a Spuffy fan in mixed company.

for whatever reason Spike's romanticism just irks me..I fail at being romantic

Assuming we mean the same thing by "romantic", that's the main reason I'm not very interested in Buffy/Angel. They just keep getting all serious and passionate...
Whereas Spuffy, I became interested in the moment they start snarking at each other while he was chained in a bathtub. And it just sort of continued from there - what with stealing underwear, and face punching, and the fact that, even in season 7, they can't have an awfully romantic night without yelling at each other about it the next day.
Buffy/Angel is all deep and meaningful, but Buffy/Spike is snarky.

Are we shippy soul-mates?

We might just be...

Not like I would ever invent strange, non-canon Lilah relationships..nooope..

Nope. Never. And I'd certainly never read such weird ideas... over and over again... Nosiree.

[dreamincolor.livejournal.com]

I became interested in the moment they start snarking at each other while he was chained in a bathtub. And it just sort of continued from there - what with stealing underwear, and face punching, and the fact that, even in season 7, they can't have an awfully romantic night without yelling at each other about it the next day.

Now that aspect of Spuffy I really can enjoy - snarky fun. It's just the Spike following Buffy around like a lost puppy that gives me a case of the eye-rolls..


Assuming we mean the same thing by "romantic", that's the main reason I'm not very interested in Buffy/Angel. They just keep getting all serious and passionate...

Yes. It was all very heart-warming and such..but it's just not that interesting. Which is strange, because it was never that way with Willow/Tara, who somehow managed to be heartwarming and interesting..

Though I suppose Willow and Tara weren't both perfect-bodied superheroes who save the day single-handedly on a frequent basis, which made the Willow/Tara relationship feel more real. Season one and two of Buffy, Angel was just so..well, I always felt like his character was much flatter then than it was by the time he was in LA. (Cordy/Angel snark for the win. -dodges flames-)


Nope. Never. And I'd certainly never read such weird ideas... over and over again... Nosiree.

Of course not. Who do people take us for? Yeesh.

[shapinglight]

Londo and G'Kar from Babylon 5?

Boy, you'd love that relationship.

[deird1]

I really should try Bab5 again...

(Watched the first episode, wasn't thrilled, and had plenty of new tv to watch. Maybe if I tried a few more episodes?)

[shapinglight]

Hard to say really.

I watched it when it was first shown on TV over here in the early 90s and loved it- the first TV show I was ever fannish about.

It was flawed, sure, but its ambition was pretty breath-taking. It's also one of these shows that has to be seen in context. What it tries to do has been done better since (BSG, for instance), but at the time, for TV sci fi it broke the mold - or several molds.

I guess what I'm saying is it might be one of those shows it's hard for people to get into years later, whereas for me, when I started my first ever rewatch last weekend, I was enthralled all over again.

Should have said, too, that I know what you mean about Spuffy. It's vastly more interesting to me than Bangel for the snark factor. I'm just sorry we didn't get more of it, partly due to Joss and co feeling they had to hammer home the whole Spike Is Evil message in season 6, which impacted on the relationship in season 7.

Not that I don't enjoy their relationship in those two seasons, I do, but sadly it made more snark between them impossible.

[deird1]

...can't stop watching your icon.


It's vastly more interesting to me than Bangel for the snark factor.

Absolutely.
This might be one of the reasons that, when I write Spuffy, they're almost invariably arguing about something...

[shapinglight]

...can't stop watching your icon.

Heh! You can snag it if you like. It was made by frimfram a few years back, after some annoying person posted a rant somewhere (I think in the parts of LJ where I don't venture because it's full of Spike-haters) about how Spuffy had ruined all TV evah! No, literally ruined it.

[deird1]

Yay!

(Okay - stupid question. How the heck do I get an animated icon to stay animated when I put it into my userpics? *is computer-illiterate*)

[shapinglight]

Er- I think it just does. I always save them the same as icons that aren't animated. You just upload them to your userpics and when you use them, they just happily carry on wiggling about.

:is also computer illiterate: