He's Really Not All That Bad

[deird_lj]

You know, I think Giles has a bit of an undeserved reputation.


(By the way, I did actually mean that spoiler warning, so gabrielleabelle, if you're still reading, for goodness' sake STOP.)

Specifically, I'm thinking about the scene in Shells, when Angel rings Giles for help, and Giles refuses.

As a reminder: Fred has died, Illyria has emerged, and Angel, reasoning that "the soul is what matters", tries to contact Willow for help bringing Fred back. And Giles tells him that Willow is currently unable to be contacted, and refuses to help Angel at all, because Angel's still working at Wolfram & Hart.

I've seen a lot of discussion, both fic and meta, of this scene, and almost invariably, people tend to assume that Giles was being presumptuous, and he shouldn't have dismissed Angel out of hand.
And then they decide that, clearly, Willow (and Buffy) would be really annoyed with Giles for doing that (and for behaving just like he did in Lies My Parents Told Me) because, obviously, Fred was lovely and they would definitely have helped her, had Giles just let them know...

I think I disagree.

The thing is, Fred is dead. Very definitely dead.
And I really don't see Willow - season seven Willow - trying to reverse someone's death. Not after the whole pulling-Buffy-out-of-heaven, losing-her-girlfriend-horribly, and-oh-by-the-way-almost-destroying-the-world thing. She just wouldn't.
Sure, she'd be sad (possibly very sad) that Fred had died, but she wouldn't try to bring Fred back. She's done that before.

And Buffy?
Buffy had, not five episodes earlier, sent Andrew in with a squadron of Slayers to back him up, and made it perfectly clear that, while Angel was at Wolfram & Hart, she really didn't trust him.

Giles might have been giving his own opinion, he might have had Buffy right there beside him dictating his every word, he might have been lying about Willow being unreachable... I really don't know. It's possible that he didn't discuss the situation with anyone before turning Angel down. What I don't agree with is the idea that Giles was responding any differently to the way the others would have. Not definitely, anyway.

So, yeah. I think he's getting unfairly blamed for that one.
Just an opinion.

Comments

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

All sounds pretty reasonable to me.

That said--I think if Willow had known the rather extreme consequences (Fred doesn't just die--she's basically erased completely, at least so far as we can tell) she would have attempted to help. But a) Angel's team doesn't know when they call and b) it's probably too late already, unless Willow does something extremely clever. (Actually I do have a scenario, one that Willow could plausibly come up with--we're both pretty smart--but I came up with it at least a year after the episode aired. That's running a bit late.)

[deird1]

You're right with the extreme consequences - and I'd love to hear your scenario.

Hmm... Must remember to post my meta on Fred and Illyria...

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

Actually, I can sum it up in one word: Dopplegangland.

Given that Willow succeeds in retrieving an individual from a past that didn't even happen, from the moment before her death, and at a time when she was considerably less powerful, it seems quite plausible to me that she could retrieve Fred's soul in the same manner.

OTOH, a) she'd need some real persuading to ever use that spell again and b) interfering with Illyria's rising could have dire consequences. I'm by no means suggesting the attempt would work, beyond the bare minimum of "I have here Fred's soul."

[deird1]

Ooh, interesting. And you're right, that could work. Kinda.

I wonder what would have happened to Illyria if they'd used the Ferula Gemina (for splitting Xander into two parts) on her?

[mabus101.livejournal.com]

Now that's a good one. I have no idea.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I've never felt Giles was being the bad guy here either. It's Angel who's decided to go work for Ultimate Evil, after all.

And since his reason for doing so was Connor, and the memory spell means that nobody else even knows about Connor, then Angel would have been unable to give anyone else a good reason why he was working for W&H.

Incidentally, Giles says that Willow is unable to help because she's gone to Tibet and is currently on the astral plane: that does seem like an actual reason why she's unavailable, and not just a feeble "She's washing her hair" excuse. :-) I'm guessing this is part of the "six month mystical walkabout" she went on between seasons 7 and 8.

Although my own theory is that actually, Willow and Buffy and Giles already knew that Illyria was about to rise, and Willow was actually off doing something about it, like destroying that temple that Illyria goes to to summon her army. I've got a half-finished fic around here somewhere going into that in a lot more depth.

[deird1]

o.O Willow destroying Illyria's army? Cool! Write it! Write it!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Just to add: if we assume that Team Slayer already knows about Illyria rising, then Giles could probably find out through contacts that it was Charles Gunn - Angel's trusted confidant and right-hand man - who arranged for Illyria's sarcophagus to be smuggled through Customs.

So Angel, CEO of Wolfram & Hart, is deeply involved in an attempt to raise an Elder God, and now he wants to lure Willow (who, in Giles' opinion, is incredibly powerful but also naive and prone to impulsive mistakes) into the clutches of his evil law firm?

Frankly, I think it was only Buffy's own personal remaining vestige of hope that Angel hadn't really turned evil that stopped her agreeing to send a squad of Slayers to stake him...

[deird1]

Ooh. Very good point.

[dreamincolor.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it was all to do with Wolfram and Hart, the hell no response, or if Giles/Buffy/who ever was there had their suspicions played up by the whole Angel-was-evil-before thing. I wonder, if Cordelia (who was obviously dead and couldn't have, but we'll pretend for argument's sake that she wasn’t) had called sobbing to say that her friend’s soul needs to be found, because it was lost, maybe forever if they didn't try something, and for God sakes just put Willow on the damn line, if it might have worked. Or maybe even, if Cordelia had played it smart and asked to talk to Xander, who she could surely convince with the whole Harris-you're-an-ass-but-help-me-this-once, it’s-my-friend’s-soul-on-the-line, who could surely convince Willow, his bestest buddy of forever and then some, to at least give it a try..

None of the scoobies are crazy about Cordelia, but I think she might have had more luck. That is, if she hadn't been..you know, dead. Which kind of negates the whole argument. But still.

I’m willing to bet the Angel-was-evil-and-killed-Giles-girlfriend-once scenario probably played in at least a little, especially if Giles was the only one in the room. Which makes me think that just about any one of the AI crew would have had more luck calling than Angel..

Ooo..or Spike. Definitely Spike. That’s a whole ‘nother idea.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I do think a grief stricken Wesley may have had more success.

[deird1]

Good point. I'm sure the fact that it was Angel didn't help matters - especially with Giles answering the phone.

Have you read beer_good_foamy's fic Recurring? It sort of uses that idea...

[dreamincolor.livejournal.com]

Mmm..no, I haven't. -clicky- Thank ya for the rec.

N' I think shipperx was right too, Wesley might have had more luck.. I'd kind of forgotten about his connection with the scoobies, and I'm not sure why..

[skipp-of-ark.livejournal.com]

About the Cordelia scenario...I dunno. I know a lot of fans just assume that Cordelia can just boss Xander around whenever she wants, but consider: A) we don't know that Xander we would have been available for Giles to hand the phone to; B) the previous four seasons of television had demonstrated that neither Cordelia nor Xander had kept in contact with each other or maintained any kind of post-high school relationship whatsoever; and C) this was less than a year after Anya had died, and Xander was probably still grieving for her. Assuming that Cordelia would have been able to tell Xander, whom she'd not had any contact with in more than four years, to persuade Willow to help resurrect Cordelia's newly deceased friend while he's still grieving for his ex-fiance, is, IMO, dangerously assuming that Xander wouldn't have told her quietly to fuck herself (or words to that effect).

[deird1]

I actually think that Cordy probably would have a better chance going straight to Buffy...

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I don't know. I always felt that Giles was pretty dismissive and unwilling to hear them out. I don't think that Giles is responsible for Fred in any way, but the way it came off was that Giles has become quite intractable... it fits with some of his earlier decisions, so I don't see his reaction as being out of character for him. Plus, I htink his decision made sense from his point of view. That said, the call was brief and that gives rise to the impression that Giles never so much as considered doing anything, and let's not forget that Illyria was not just a danger to Fred, but to the world at that point. "Saving" Fred looked as though it might have greater consequences than just one girl from Texas. Giles, however, seemed quick to dismiss any prospect of doing anything, and I never had the impression that he'd even heard the entire argument making Fred's case before dismissing it. (Albeit, of course, there's nothing in the text to prove that, but it was the subjective impression I had.)

[deird1]

See, I think it fits with his actions in Lies My Parents Told Me - but that's partly the reason I think he wouldn't do it. He's gone behind Buffy's back before, and it didn't end well. I think, in similar circumstances, he'd be more likely to keep her informed this time...

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I never got the impression that Giles was being presumptuous or unreasonable in that scene. We don’t get to hear what he actually said, all we do hear is Angel presumptuously ordering him to get Willow to deal with a colleague who’d been killed as a direct result of Angel signing up with Wolfram and Hart. We don’t know exactly what Angel said but under the circumstances he must be asking Willow to either resurrect a dead person (an act Giles described as killing everyone and risking hell on earth the last time she did it) or forcing Fred’s soul to share a body with an Old One. As stormwreath said Angel wouldn’t have been able to tell Buffy the real reason he joined W&H and probably came across pretty shifty if he attempted to do so. Under Angel’s CEOship W&H have continued to be involved with human sacrificing clients and profiting from the powerful, demonic and evil. Giles not wanting to send Willow to Evil Incorporated on some crazy half-baked and possibly hell-on-earth risking mission seems pretty reasonable.

[deird1]

Well, exactly.

Angel doesn't really get the fact that people aren't actually going to trust him if he's not looking very trustworthy...

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

I wasn't fond of the attitude, to be honest - judging Angel and co from hundreds of miles away, with no context, no attempt to compromise? I don't think it's out of character, but it did irritate me.

That said, that started back in Damage, and if Andrew was telling the truth, it was indeed Buffy's call. I'm sure some personal feelings did come into play, but - Giles was never perfect. He's not a heartless bastard, either, though.

Well, okay, he can act like one sometimes, but so can most people. I still love him.

(I think Angel might have had more luck if he'd said "um, we have a DEMON GOD that might CONQUER THE WORLD, Willow might be helpful, we don't want millions of people to die".)

[deird1]

Yeah, he probably would have had more luck that way...

[neutralalienist.livejournal.com]

Perspective, y'know? ;p

[rahirah]

I think the absence of Buffy speaking for herself in all this is what causes unrest. We're told Buffy doesn't trust Angel, but we never see or hear Buffy herself say that. We don't know if Giles was acting under Buffy's authority or not when he blows Angel off. I'm way behind on the comics, so I don't know if this stuff ever gets addressed there, but given Joss's apparent disinterest in the AtS characters, I'm guessing not.

Whether or not one views Buffy/Immortal as canon also plays into this - it's far easier to imagine an exasperated Giles making end runs around a Buffy who's off partying. There's also the point that Andrew, a notoriously unreliable narrator, is the person to deliver much of this information about Buffy. If you take the comics as canon, Andrew is outright lying to Spike and Angel in TGIQ - is he doing it on Buffy's orders, or Giles's, or both? There's no way to tell for certain.

So it's possible to construct plausible scenarios either way - Buffy doesn't trust Angel and Giles is doing what Buffy wants, or Giles is doing a lot of stuff behind Buffy's back.

[deird1]

Hmm, good point. We never do actually have Buffy say anything directly, do we?

Whether or not one views Buffy/Immortal as canon also plays into this - it's far easier to imagine an exasperated Giles making end runs around a Buffy who's off partying.

Never even thought about that. Hmm...

[shapinglight]

I agree with you. What's more, I don't think LMPTM would have really changed Buffy's opinion of Giles. Okay, so that had changed and she was angry with him for undermining her authority - but I think she at least understood why he did what he did and didn't bear a grudge.

For that matter, I don't think Spike did either.

[deird1]

I think you're right.

I mean, they'd both be annoyed with him, and Spike would feel justified in making snarky comments for... pretty much ever... but I don't think they'd bear any grudges, really.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

It is unfair, isn't it? That the fans would accuse Giles of being an ass when they didn't hear his part of the conversation or the circumstances he was in.

Since I consider S8 canon, Willow had been gone for a year with no one knowing where she went. So Giles was right when he said that he couldn't reach her. *Shrug*

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Willow had been gone for a year with no one knowing where she went

Without Buffy, Dawn or Xander knowing where she went, at any rate. Given that Giles apparently knows she's gone to Tibet and is astrally projecting there, I suspect that Willow talked to him about her "six-month mystical walkabout" but didn't discuss it with the rest of her friends. Giles may even have suggested the Tibet trip as a starting point for her to find people to teach her more about using her powers safely, and Willow went on from contact to contact until she eventually tracked down Saga Vasuki.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Given that Giles apparently knows she's gone to Tibet and is astrally projecting there

When are we told that? *is curious because she's writing a long S8 Spuffy fic and needs to have her details accurate*

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

From Angel's phone call in 'Shells', actually. :-)

ANGEL (to phone): Himalayas? I thought she was in South America.

SPIKE (to himself): We've got a branch in Tibet? How about a couple of sherpas?

ANGEL (to phone): All right, look— (sighs) What do you mean she's not on this plane? You just said— Astral projection? Well, is there any way to get her astral over to L.A.? Giles, this is an emergency. No. No, I'm not going— Don't put me on hold.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

This is why I'm in love with S8 :) If only fans consider it canon, the Giles thing makes so much sense now.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

I tend to agree with you. We don't really know exactly what transpired in most of that conversation, but I'd imagine Giles had past situations running through his memory, and was going to see to it that the horrible results didn't happen this time. From his standpoint, he was probably seeing a situation in which, yet again, someone was wanting to use black arts to bring back a loved one who was simply already gone. And let's not forget that he's got darn good reason not to trust Angel, in the first place.

[deird1]

Entirely.

He'd be getting major flashbacks to Bargaining, and would have no reason to think it'd go any better this time around.

Actually, come to think of it, he'd probably also be quite concerned about the effect it'd have on Willow if she tried something like that again...