What I Mean By Mary-Sue and Why I Hate Her

[deird_lj]

There has been a large amount of discussion on metafandom this week about Mary-Sue’s. People have been arguing that Mary-Sue’s are great, that they suck, that they’re a phase that everyone goes through, that they should be encouraged, and that they should be banned from fanfic. But there doesn’t seem to be much agreement about what “Mary-Sue” actually means.

Interestingly, it looks from here like the pro-Sue side are defining her as “an original female character who does fun stuff”, and the anti-Sue side are thinking of her as “an original character who warps the story around her”. (I’d love to know if the pro-Sues think the anti-Sues hate female characters – or if the antis think the pros love story-warping – but I’m going slightly off-topic, here.)


So what I wanted to discuss was my definition of a Mary-Sue, and what its place should be in a story. Or, in fact:

What I Mean By Mary-Sue and Why I Hate Her


As many of you know, I first came to fandom via metafandom – and spent several months reading discussions of fanfic before actually reading the fic.

After a few months of lurking, I could have told you anything you liked about Mary-Sue’s. In detail.

Specifically:
- she is female.
- she’s an OC.
- she has purple eyes, and improbably coloured hair.
- she giggles, flirts, and is loved by everyone.
- she can do anything.
- she will instantly fall in love with Legolas.
- she will have a tragic backstory.
- she will be wonderful beyond belief.

The “female OC” bit, especially, was emphasised in pretty much every piece of meta I read.

Imagine my surprise when the first Mary-Sue I encountered was… Xander Harris.


[I am about to do some rather nasty ranting about a piece of fanfic. While I will not be naming it or directing you towards it, it’s quite possible that some of you will recognise which story I’m talking about. Let me just emphasise that I’m using it as an example, and please don’t mention it by name, rant about this specific story in the comments, or make nasty comments about the author.]


Like I was saying, I hadn’t yet read much fanfic. And I hadn’t encountered any Mary-Sue’s. But I’d read all about them – and was happily watching out for this female OC with purple eyes, and meanwhile, wondering what on earth was wrong with the story I was currently reading.

Something was wrong with it. It was a good story – fun and well written – and I was enjoying it. But something was… off.

It was about Xander. The non-magical, not-so-good-at-stuff guy.

The guy who was, in fact, so un-magical that he was the only person in the world whose soul could be sent back in time to fix the world and make things right again.

…which was kind of an interesting story idea, I guess.

And it showed flashes of his life, through the years – like him being married to Faith, and then kissing Buffy and feeling guilty. And I went “Ooh. Interesting. So he’s cheating on Faith…” – but no, he wasn’t. This was after Faith died, and instead the guilt was there to emphasise the tragic backstory and general woobieness of our hero.

Still, it was nicely written. And interesting that his wife had died tragically.

And while everyone else was busily becoming good at magic, Xander couldn’t because he was so non-magical – so instead, he went into magical weapons forging. And it turned out that, in fact, the more non-magical you were, the better you’d be at forging, and so Xander was destined to be the best weapons forger in the world.

Which meant that there were interesting weapons around. And had some fun stuff happen because of that. And they were certainly well thought-out.

And because he was sent back in time, he knew what was going to happen – so he stopped Angel from losing his soul, and saved Kendra, and saved Jenny, and stopped pretty much every disaster they dealt with in advance…

Reasonably logical, given the going-back-in-time premise. But I resented him for stopping Angel losing his soul – which was ridiculous, because after all, he was doing something good and saving Buffy from heartbreak, and why on earth did I have a problem with that?

And then he met Faith (who he’d been married to in the future) and was all concerned about her, and worried because he was supposed to end up with Faith and then have her die and marry Buffy, and which one of them was he supposed to marry now that he knew the future? Angst, angst, angst…

…the guy was angsting about which of the two beautiful women he should choose. Out of two women who loved him. This was his biggest problem? He was starting to irritate me a bit.

And there was this whole plot with Willow, too – the story wasn’t just about Xander – where she sent him back in time to prevent all the heartache they’d go through, and stop Tara dying, and stop herself from destroying the world.

Which was kinda interesting and time paradoxy, with her stopping herself back in the past, and it was a really cool plan that she’d thought of because when Faith had died she’d looked back and realised how much they’d lost when she saw Xander mourning for his wife… and was this WHOLE FRIGGING STORY about Xander?! EVERYONE KEPT TALKING ABOUT HIM. WHAT THE FRELL.


Behold. A Mary-Sue. A very definite Mary-Sue, despite his lack of femaleness or original-character-ness, or anything that I’d been led to expect.


The most satisfying piece of fiction I’ve ever written is Infestation. In which the Fang Gang hunt down a bunch of Mary-Sue’s and slaughter them all.

Mid-fic, I had Wesley research them and find the following information:
“Reality bends to suit their purpose
They are all, and we are worthless
Smiles destroy us, truth is lie
All they touch will shrivel and die”

Reality bends to suit their purpose. That’s what was wrong with Xander. The story was warping itself around Xander, and reshaping the world so that everything – everything – revolved around him.

The plot was about him. Willow’s plan happened because of him. The girls all loved him. The Scoobies all started listening to him. The world was made better by him. Kendra was saved by him. The world was all about him.

That’s why I resented him stopping Angel from going evil. He wasn’t just doing something good in his own story – he was stealing Buffy’s story, and making her plot his instead. All the character-building moments that made all these people what they were had been transformed into Xander-heroing moments, in which Xander would save the day AGAIN, and no-one would ever experience heartache because Xander would help them, Xander was so cool, Xander Xander Xander Xander…

IT WAS ALL ABOUT HIM.


I seem to have ended up with a slightly different idea of what a Mary-Sue is.

Firstly, she’s not a self-insert. Self-inserts work more like this. They’re similar, but they’re not the same. (Self-inserts are cute. Mary-Sue’s are destructive.)

And she’s not a female OC – not necessarily. If you want to write a female OC who can fight cyborgs and run the Enterprise and fly, go right ahead! And give her purple eyes and fluffy pink hair and a name like Twyla Moonlight Evensong! Woo!

The problem is not the OC. It’s not that she’s a girl. It’s not even the purple eyes. The problem is when the story starts warping itself – when everything, and everyone, and every single piece of anything ever is all bound up in the one character. With no room for anyone else.

That’s the Mary-Sue. She’s problematic. Sometimes, she’s downright toxic.

And I hate her.





Questions? Comments?

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

Male Mary-Sue's can be Gary-Sue's or Marty-Sue's. They do exist. I tend to avoid them at all costs (either male or female), as they ruin a story by overshadowing the other characters.

The one's I really hate though are the one's inserted by the creators. There is no excuse for that. With fanfiction, someone is writing for their own enjoyment and, hopefully, others. Creators have a larger responsiblity. They have a universe, and characters, to create, so should not make one take over the show.

[sockmonkeyhere.livejournal.com]

*cough*EddieHope*cough*

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I read a story once, that was a combo Mary Sue meets self insert from a tangent dimension, and made all of these awesome valid points about the characters and their lives...but it was too much. It was annoying. Oh sure, I agreed with all the points made, but I just really wanted to bitch slap the character, for some reason...

I think that would have made a better piece of meta than a fan fic.

<--is now pondering the fun and cuteness of this self insert thing ;)

[parcae-lj.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the reason why all the girls love Xander in that story is that all the girls do love Xander. Dawn had a crush on him, Kendra had a crush on him, Willow had a huge crush on him, Faith had an affair with him, Cordelia and Anya had relationships with him, Tara thought he was a sweetheart, he saved Kennedy's life, and he was Buffy's best guy friend (plus she had a thing for him in Season 8, which will never be canon for me, but shows that it's possible). Everybody Loves Xander woes only kick in for me when girls start falling for him who didn't like or know him in canon - if Amy suddenly discovers a thing for him, for example, or Lilah leaves Wesley for him, or Drusilla develops a sudden yen. How many Buffy-centric stories are there in which she has to choose between Angel and Spike?

And, while I understand your point, I don't agree that it's a bad thing to have everything revolve around Xander in a story which is already about Xander. In canon, everything revolves around Buffy, because she's the protagonist. Xander's engagement falls apart and it's treated as a big deal primarily because his upcoming marriage was the one bastion of normality in her life. Same goes for Angel on his series. It must have looked pretty weird for the Black Thorn when their 1000-year-old web of intrigue was suddenly interrupted by a crazy dude with teeth.

Protagonists bend the story around them by definition. The word literally means "first struggler," and everybody else's struggles have to be secondary.

I've read the story you're posting about, and I disliked it for exactly the opposite reason. The Willow plot arc struck me as ridiculous, convoluted, and completely unnecessary in a story that was fundamentally about Xander trying to patch things up with the women he loves.

Fanfiction doesn't have to follow the rules of the series. BtVS was about Buffy. Fanfiction doesn't have to be. It's fine to change the roles of the different characters as long as you keep it believable.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

But Dru did develop a sudden yen for Xander! It was short-lived, but every female in Sunnydale did, including Joyce and Jenny. Heh. I hadn't thought about his popularity with the ladies in quite that way you point out before...he is quite the machine.

[rebcake.livejournal.com]

I knew I was doing it wrong! I tried everything: purple eyes, purple hair, time travel, etc. But people kept kept saying it was cute, and they wanted to see more of the character. Sheesh!

Now I see, though, that I neglected to let her take over. I'll do better next time, I swear. ;-}

[deird1]

But people kept kept saying it was cute, and they wanted to see more of the character.

Well, she was cute...

[bloodypoetry.livejournal.com]

See this is what I consider a Mary Sue as well. ANY character (doesn't even have to be an OC, though once they warp the character enough of course it's mostly OOC :p ). I started this fic the other day that was a perfect example, and shockingly so: The OC showed up, and all the other characters spent vast amounts of time thinking about how 'stunningly beautiful she was'. I stopped before the story became all about her.

[silverusagi]

A good example of how even canon characters (not OCs) can become Mary Sues.

[lavastar.livejournal.com]

Oooooh, I really like this definition. Cause it totally works. Definitely helpful, at least for me personally.

And now I'm thinking about stupid fic characters, and chuckling knowingly to myself. :)

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I think you're right that the heart of this problem is that people are talking about fundamentally different things and have fundamentally different definitions of what a Mary Sue actually is. I have a problem with Mary Sue hate because:

A) people start throwing the phrase around so much that it doesn't mean anything, especially when it comes to canon: no matter the fandom, some female character will be labeled a Mary Sue--the most infamous one I can think of is Ginny Weasley in HP, who isn't very well-developed as a character, but who the plot definitely doesn't warp around. Instead of saying, "Oh, she's a flat character and we're told, not shown, why she's cool, and I just don't buy her relationship with Harry at all," people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" even though if you look at strict definitions, Harry is far, far, far more of a Gary Stu than Ginny is. But he's a guy, you see. Guys are supposed to be heroes! [More on this last anon.]

B) People use it viciously against thirteen-year-old girls who are just starting to write. And lots of times they do write Mary Sues (that are also self-inserts) and people act like it's the worst thing that ever happened to fandom. Yes, it's bad writing. But most of us started out there. (I never posted any of mine, but I'm sure I wrote it.) And then we got better. If we weren't scared away from fandom by the older fans who acted like we'd committed an unpardonable sin. [Note: this is not what you're doing here, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that. But I have seen it happen.]

C) It's gendered. A female character could have the exact same traits as a male character, but the female is labeled a Mary Sue while the male one isn't. I hate that. [SPN fandom was bad about this with both Bela and Ruby; the entire time those characters were running around being bashed for being Mary Sues, I kept thinking, "If these characters were men, the fans would love it and would slash the hell out of them with the boys." Other fandoms have similar problems.]

That's why I tend to be a Mary Sue...not defender, not apologist...someone who who tries to get people to rethink the whole thing, I guess? I hear people start yelling, "Mary Sue!" and I brace myself, because it's probably going to turn ugly.

But! You're not doing any of that here, and I totally and completely agree with your post, and I also agree with your definition (even if I think it's not the same one a lot of people use). All of those things you list? Bad writing, definitely. And I hate it. Great post!

[a2zmom.livejournal.com]

B) People use it viciously against thirteen-year-old girls who are just starting to write. And lots of times they do write Mary Sues (that are also self-inserts) and people act like it's the worst thing that ever happened to fandom. Yes, it's bad writing. But most of us started out there. (I never posted any of mine, but I'm sure I wrote it.) And then we got better. If we weren't scared away from fandom by the older fans who acted like we'd committed an unpardonable sin. [Note: this is not what you're doing here, and I definitely don't mean to suggest that. But I have seen it happen.]

This! And I agree that is not what's being written about here, but I see it a lot, especially on ff net. I would never shut down a young writer for that particular sin.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

Are there just Mary-Sue's though? Aren't Gary-Stu's the same thing different gender? (Although, thinking about it, since fanfic is predominantly female generated, it's more likely to have a female self-insert character). That said, I can see where Xander has/can function as a self-insert character for a couple of people, because he is sometimes discussed that way. He isn't that in the show. But, yeah, I think we all have the capabilty to create a Mary-Sue or a Gary-Sue. It's just not particularly good writing (and somewhat self indulgent) to do so.

[rahirah]

I think that depends on the fandom - in Elfquest fandom, there were a lot more male fans than there seems to be in a lot of media fandoms. You were just as likely to find a Wottaguy as a Wottagal. Possibly more so, because female writers were more apt to write male Wottaguy woobies than male writers were apt to do the opposite. But even there, one of the most notorious Wottagals in the groups I knew was the creation of a male writer.

[rahirah]

I have a slightly different perspective on Mary Sues, because I started out in a fandom which was, at the time, all about creating OCs and having them interact with other people's OCs. (The stories were set in the world of the canon we were writing, but the creators had basically said "Write all the fanfic you like, but please don't use our characters, OK?" and for the most part fandom respected their wishes. So the whole OCF = Mary Sue thing didn't even apply.

What did apply was what you're talking about - characters who suck all the literary oxygen out of the room, leaving nothing for anyone else. In Elfquest fandom we called them Wottaguy characters. (In fact, I think that lordgloria may have invented the term.) And because we were working in shared universe writing groups, they could get really, really annoying, because you couldn't just back-button away, you had to deal with them somehow.

In my experience, you can make your character as awesome and fantastic as you want and still escape Mary Sue-ism as long as you let the other characters be awesome, too. Back in those days I created a lot of characters who would win a Mary Sue contest with magenta-with-gold-flecked eyes blindfolded, but I had people asking me if they could have their character be related to mine, or if they could use my characters in their stories, or if I'd write their character into my stories, and so on. It wasn't that my characters were all that and a bag of chips, it was that I'd demonstrated that I was willing and able to let other peoples' characters shine, too.

[next_to_normal]

Yes. This, exactly. When I first came to fandom, I was confused by two somewhat conflicting definitions of Mary Sue - one was the super-awesome purple-haired chick you described in the beginning, and the other was the self-insert. And I couldn't reconcile those two, because how can it be a self-insert if you've given yourself purple hair and a tragic backstory and super-duper magic skillz?

Eventually, I settled on pretty much the definition you did - a Mary Sue can be any character - male or female, OC or canon, self-insert or wildly perfect in every way - if the story is All About Them, to the detriment of everything else.

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

I do agree with you. A Mary Sue can be any character: male or female, OC or canon. But I prefer to judge the stories I come across on the merits of the story itself rather than simply brushing off every Mary Sue/OC fic out-of-hand.

And....I had an original character in my first fanfiction. I liked her and so did my readers. I had a lot of fun writing it at the time. :)

[ohwaluvusbab.livejournal.com]

Mid-fic, I had Wesley research them and find the following information:
“Reality bends to suit their purpose
They are all, and we are worthless
Smiles destroy us, truth is lie
All they touch will shrivel and die”

Oh man, this is just awesome. A+.

[deird1]

*grins*

Thanks!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

That's so interesting. I agree with you about characters becoming Mary Sues, I've come across this with different characters. You know what's funny? Xander is my favorite character but I've never read a fic that turns him into the hero (instead of Buffy that is) or gives him superpowers ot gun-loving Xander fics. Those fics that fans rant about. I always avoid them, because those fics don't give me the Xander I fell in love with. When I want to read a Xander fic I check first if he's normal, because if Xander got superpowers he'll lose what makes him special.

And it's also a pet peeve of mine when characters steal other characters stories. I heard that in those comics where Dawn is present in the early seasons, she was the one who made Xander go to Angel and force him to take him to the Master. I hated that; Xander went on his own. NO ONE made him do that. So, obviously I didn't buy those comics.

[harsens-rob.livejournal.com]

One of the problems with changing an canon character for me, is not that you've changed him/her - but that I can't recognize them to begin with. I have no problem if Xan is given powers or not, becomes more heroic or not, goes slashy or not (but I prefer he do!), becomes more forceful or wise or magical or not - I care when he starts off as someone who is in no way Xander. An OC wearing his face and using his name is not the character, no matter what the author intended. But if you can give me a paragraph with the Xander I'm familiar with and then use that as your jumping off point for changing him into the character you're interested in writing, I can usually accept that and keep reading... usually (the two exceptions are emo!Xan and Wolverine!Xan, but that is my problem).

When Xander is Marty-Stu-ed, we usually get no information on why he is now the way he is. He's just given powers so everyone else will 'respect' him the way the author wished they did on the show - usually by forcing Buffy to be a complete LOSER so he'll shine more. Which is what I consider a Marty/Mary - they are there to make everyone else look incompetent so we'll understand just how universe-shaking awesome our Mary/Marty truly is and fall in love with them as much as the author obviously has.

[ozma914.livejournal.com]

I could have used this article when I first started out. I created two Mary Sue characters for some of my Buffy stories (well, one Gary Stu) and could never figure out why everyone seemed to like them when they were obviously based on me and my daughter (at least, originally). Then someone pointed out to me that they were actually self-inserts; if I'd known the difference at the time I wouldn't have worried about it so much.

[jgracio.livejournal.com]

Hum... IMO, that's not a Mary/Gary-Sue.

That's a protagonist.

Like, Angel's Buffy's boyfriend. Sure, he's there, and he's important, but the prophecy's aren't about him, he's not the one saving the world on a regular basis, he helps sure, but Buffy's the Chosen one.

And then, he moves a few miles, and lo and behold, prophecy's. Regular world saving. Huge destiny. Buffy who?

Now, if you're going into a fic expecting to read about a secondary character being given a little more meat, and instead find that the roles have been switched, it'll look sueish (and in your example the character is a bit sueish, IMO, at least in that he pretty much manages to fix "everything").

I dunno if you know Ender's game and Shadow's something something (in the same universe). Same deal. The second series picks up a secondary character from the first and build him up until in my opinion he overshadows the first character. And I didn't like it. But that's the way of things, that's what being the protagonist means. The story revolves around that character.

Now, have Xander outfight Buffy, outmagic Willow, out-wisdom Giles, etc., etc., and that's a sue. And unfortunately there are many examples...

[lynnalso.livejournal.com]

All right if I admit this is petty are we ok? Mary Sue plural is Mary Sues.

[deird1]

Actually, out of my three editing-and-language textbooks, one recommended "Mary-Sues", and the other two suggested "Mary-Sue's". I decided to go with the majority...

[caerglas.livejournal.com]

[I am about to do some rather nasty ranting about a piece of fanfic. While I will not be naming it or directing you towards it, it’s quite possible that some of you will recognise which story I’m talking about. Let me just emphasise that I’m using it as an example, and please don’t mention it by name, rant about this specific story in the comments, or make nasty comments about the author.]

Just wanted to say that while I see your points, and I see their validity, I read the story and still enjoyed it. I hope the author takes this as constructive criticism, cause it was still a fun read.

[deird1]

It was a very fun story, wasn't it?

[abelina.livejournal.com]

Jonathan, in Superstar, Mary Sued himself with his spell. In his new world, nobody else had the ability to solve problems. Buffy couldn't handle things on her own. Everybody loved him and he was a wonderful relationship counselor, too!

[swordygardener.livejournal.com]

or if the antis think the pros love story-warping

As an "Anti"-
Nah, I just think the meaning of the word got muddled and that the 'pro' side isn't actually "for" Sues - but for interesting, awesome, special female characters. And I see no reasonable argument not to be for the later. I'm just saying that you don't need Sues for that, at all.


Your essay actually describes well why I dislike Sues. Thank you for it.

[xfphile.livejournal.com]

I'm poking my nose in for 3 seconds to say the worst Mary-Sue I've ever seen (and I've written one, though I didn't know it at the time) is Ginny Weasly in the Harry Potter books -- and I completely agree with you. I hate any and all Sues: male, female, in one horrifying instance both, and undecided. They are evil. Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

How on EARTH is Ginny Weasley a Mary Sue?

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

Inquiring minds really want to know what you think a Mary Sue is.

[michelel72.livejournal.com]

For the most part I agree with you strongly and I thank you for this post.

But there's a tiny part of me that's looking at a fic in which one of the canon protagonists finds himself back in time; the fic is about him, and of course he tries to fix everything that he knows will go wrong, so how do I avoid the "he's a hero for succeeding or a woobie for failing, and therefore a Sue regardless" trap?

(I use the term "Mary Sue" regardless of the character's sex or gender. The term is historical, established by a specific writer, and I see no need to play gender games with it personally.)

I'm not asking you to provide the answer; I'm just musing. I'm doing my best to keep him human and flawed, with setbacks and successes, but it's tricky. Especially since he's a total Canon Sue ("acknowledged self-insert" and "BAMF" varieties) to start with. Heh.

[harsens-rob.livejournal.com]

The real thing about Mary Sue vs. Not is attitude. If you love Xander so much that you have to strip Buffy of her ability to Slay or Willow of her ability to use computers or cast spells or Giles' ability to find obscure but important information, your Xan is becoming a Sue.

(And by stripping them of their abilities, what I mean is they can't accomplish anything if Xander doesn't step in to do it for them.)

Mary Sue-ism, boiled down, is making everyone else forget they can do anything so the Sue can be responsible for everything. Giles suddenly can't find some critical information, thank God Xan is there. Willow can't get her magic to work, thank God the spell calls for a 'regular person' to cast it and Xan is there. Buffy suddenly can't throw a punch, thank God Xan is there to save her. Spike suddenly can't control his blood lust, thank God Xan is there to calm him (and leading to Spander-antics). Oz is worried that the wolf it taking over, thank God Xander is there to talk him down.

When every single character can't function without the Sue advising, helping, taking over their role, or basically ensuring they succeed then you have a universe-unraveling Sue.

[dharma-slut.livejournal.com]

nterestingly, it looks from here like the pro-Sue side are defining her as “an original female character who does fun stuff”, and the anti-Sue side are thinking of her as “an original character who warps the story around her”.

Not really. From where I am standing, I see Mary Sue in two ways. One is "A self insert created by an inexperienced writer who wants to be part of the anrrative anyway" or; "Any original female character whom somebody has decided is too awesome for her own good."

And the anti-sue side seem to think of her as "A good excuse for laying down the snark on some little twerp who ONLY WROTE THAT STORY TO PISS ME OFF."

(I’d love to know if the pro-Sues think the anti-Sues hate female characters – or if the antis think the pros love story-warping – but I’m going slightly off-topic, here.)

Considering the sheer numbers of anti-sue comments I have seen in my years, and how often Stu goes unregarded, I would say that an awful lot of anti-sue commenters do, indeed, hate women characters.

And via metafandom I found a really lovely essay on how great the warped narrative is! (http://chaila43.livejournal.com/86493.html?format=light)

I can't find it, but there's another Xander story that must have been written solely for the purpose of hitting every mary Sue point in existence, from the foundling who is really the prince of some demon tribe, to the speshul eye color (cause they glow green because of the hyena) to DYING TO SAVE THE WORLD (but coming back to life again of course)

It was really awesome... XD

[dragonyphoenix.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how I've avoided reading Mary Sues. Perhaps because if a story isn't good, I tend to jump ship fairly quickly. There's an interesting post here (http://caithyra.insanejournal.com/32214.html) that suggests a new term: blackholes. I like the argument but doubt it'll stick since so many people are used to the Mary Sue terminology.

Aside: I see what you mean about pluralizing names. "Mary Sues" just doesn't look right.