a poll about Buffyverse apostrophes

[deird_lj]

Because I get wildly curious about unimportant matters such as punctuation.


[Poll #1573612]


Questions? Comments?

Comments

[snickfic]

Apparently I am a fan of plural possessives above all else.

[deird1]

Well, they are pretty awesome...

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

Me, too. Go figure!

[angearia.livejournal.com]

The shooting script titles the episode "Lovers Walk" and also refers to the Council as "the Watcher's Council".

I vote for "pig's blood"--I couldn't find any shooting script back-up evidence (and I'm tempted to Tweet Jane E. about it... maybe someone other than me will). But if you were just referring to it without the possessive form, I think it would be "pig blood" like "cow blood" or "human blood". I just have trouble seeing the plural used when combining two nouns all Anglo-Saxon style.

Shark blood. Sharks blood. It sounds weird. Cow blood. Cows blood. Goat blood. Goats blood. The plural just doesn't look right to me.

[deird1]

So, who's the specific Watcher who owns the Council? :)


I could never quite decide whether it was "pig's blood" or "pigs' blood" - and now my editing course has informed me that, in fact, "pigs blood" would be perfectly alright. So I'm rather confused...

[angearia.livejournal.com]

*checks some more* Giles calls them the "Council of Watchers" in Checkpoint but again in Triangle it's "Watcher's Council".

I tend to think the Council views themselves as one entity. Quentin even implies that in how the Slayer dies, the Council remains. So I can see them looking at themselves so much as one body that they call themselves "the Watcher's Council". The great body as a whole is The Watcher. The individuals are watchers. I think it's an idiosyncrasy that relies upon self-determination of identity, not the rules of grammar per se.

[deird1]

Hmm...

Actually, that's now making me flash back to the Buffy movie - with the Watcher who keeps getting reincarnated. So in every generation there's the Slayer and the Watcher, who are the same person, over and over again...

*ponders*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

You know what, all the members of the Council are members of the Council--they're watchers, but they're not the Watcher because the Slayer can only have one Watcher, right? This is a mystical bond that Giles has to let go of for Buffy to go on her vision quest in Intervention. So the Council is always The Watcher's Council. I bet in olden days whoever was the Watcher to the Slayer used the Council the way old rulers worked with their council governing bodies.

[deird1]

So, in fact, Giles owns the Council?

Good for him. :)

[angearia.livejournal.com]

He's a ruler who through Macchiavellian means has been stripped of his leadership power by the oppressive Council who wishes to upset the old regime. The old regime that keeps the old name for appearances sake.

Just as it's the King's Navy, so is it the Watcher's Council. Until the Navy Council had a big coup in the zoo.

I'm now imagining a dictatorial Watcher of yore who the Council rises up and dethrones. It kinda fits with how Giles was treated like such a dog by the Council when Buffy rightly points out that the Slayer and the Watcher are the ones with the power. All the Council can do is withhold knowledge, the only means of their power (that and coercive methods).

[next_to_normal]

I think it's an idiosyncrasy that relies upon self-determination of identity, not the rules of grammar per se.

Stupid Watchers.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I WAS HOPING YOU WOULD SHOW UP WITH THAT ICON.

Also, I left you a present in my journal....

[next_to_normal]

Hahaha, I am awesome in my predictability. :)

Also, EEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!! I will reply as soon as I stop squeeing so hard.

[penny-lane-42.livejournal.com]

I'm just madly in love with that icon. And the Batman and Robin of speech writing.

Ha! I hope you enjoy! I'm leaving tons of stuff out, I know (I don't even touch on plot at all), so feel free to demand, "What about ______?"

[next_to_normal]

I vote for "pig's blood"--I couldn't find any shooting script back-up evidence

Found one - Buffy says it in "Potential" and it's spelled "pig's."

[deird1]

*applauds your Google-fu*

[next_to_normal]

Haha, actually it was my Buffyverse Dialogue Database-fu cross-referenced with my Buffyworld-fu. :) *karate chops the internet*

[deird1]

I love your icon-use in this post...

[next_to_normal]

Hee! Thanks.

I offer more evidence for the jury:

Consequences: Watcher's Council
Doppelgangland: Watcher Council (gak!)
Who Are You: Watcher's Council
Never Leave Me: Watchers' Council

[next_to_normal]

I'm undecided on the first one - is it a Council OF Watchers, or a Council FOR Watchers? I think it could go either way, but I tend to use "Watchers' Council" in fics, for reasons I can't quite explain.

"Lovers Walk," because that's what it says on my DVD, and I'm assuming they know what the title is supposed to be.

"Pig's blood," because it's blood that comes from a pig.

[deird1]

Yes, but are they using the blood from a pig, or a group of pigs whose blood is all mixed together? Or is it a theoretical pig who stands in for pigness as a whole - like if you say "the kangaroo is a marsupial" you actually mean all kangaroos rather than just one?

*is confuzzled*

[angearia.livejournal.com]

If it relies on if it's from one pig or several, then the circumstances would change with every time the blood is used. One time it might be from just one pig, other times from several. In that case, there can be no universally correct term--not while relying upon variable contingencies.

[next_to_normal]

The theoretical pig. :) Like, if you said, "The female kangaroo's pouch is called a marsupium."

[deird1]

Hey, wait, it is? *checks dictionary* COOL!


And I bow to your superior reasoning. Pig's blood it is.

[next_to_normal]

I totally just Wikipediaed that. :)

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

I figure chances are pretty good that it's only one pigs blood. So pig's blood.

I don't use a possessive in Lovers Walk

Watchers' Council has a plural.

I think...

The vicissitudes of punctuation

[diebirchen.livejournal.com]

Well, what the show intended vs what would be literally and most accurately correct according to the rules of punctuation are possibly two separate issues. As to the first, "Watchers'" is most logical, because it is the council of plural watchers. That watchers consider their council one entity is covered by the singular collective noun "council," not by the possessive, therefore adjectival-ish form, of the noun that describes it. In the second case, I believe no possessive was intended in the episode title. It's simply a statement of what happens: noun and verb. Some of the lovers do "walk" as in "leave" their belovéd. As to the much defamed and allegédly foul-tasting pigs' blood, I figure that at any butcher's shop [probably the shop of one butcher, in most cases], the blood is collected from all slaughterings. The chances of having the blood of just one deceased piggy is pretty danged small. It's the blood of plural pigs. However, if one thinks of the word "pig" as referring to the animal generically as a group [The pig is an animal, not one particular one, but the genus collectively.], then the singular possessive works. A logical case can be made either way. What the writers intended is another matter, and while they do a great job, precise punctuation may not have been their forté. Having no talent for plot construction, I am reduced to this. Is that sad or what? Sigh!

signed,
the Fairy Godmother of Verbal Usage

[roccondilrinon.livejournal.com]

Watchers' Council, definitely, because it's a simple plural possessive.

Lovers' Walk would be correct if you're describing it, but if the place actually has been officially named Lovers Walk then that takes precedence, much like the Australian words "labour" and "harbour" are spelt differently as part of "Labor Party" and "Victor Harbor".

I go with eowyn_315's reasoning for saying "pig's blood", but "pigs' blood" may also be acceptable. I think "pigs blood" looks silly and wrong, but rather than choose any of the three I'd be just as inclined to write "pig blood" and avoid the whole tangled mess.

[deird1]

Technically, if it's "a Council composed of Watchers" rather than "a Council owned by Watchers", "Watchers Council" would be perfectly correct.


You're aware "Lovers Walk" is the name of an episode rather than a place, right?

[roccondilrinon.livejournal.com]

Would it? Not disputing, just wondering how that works, grammatically. I'd have thought "a Council composed of Watchers", if it wasn't "Watchers' Council", would be "Watcher Council".

Yes, I know it's the name of an episode, but whether the episode name is grammatically correct depends on whether it's named after a place with that official name, a place with that unofficial name, or named as a description of what happens in that episode. If A, then the apostrophe goes wherever it goes in the official place name; if B, then the apostrophe follows the S as it's a plural possessive; if C, there's no apostrophe as it's a simple plural.

[deird1]

Yeah, apparently. It's the same logic behind "boys school" and "girls toilet" (although... the toilet isn't composed of girls, so... *needs to check my books again*). Both are acceptable.

On the other hand, you can't say "mens toilet", because that would translate as "a toilet for mens" and that's nonsensical. It only works if the word not being apostrophised is an actual word (like "boys", "Watchers", etc).

[roccondilrinon.livejournal.com]

Mmmkay. See, I'd have said "boys' school" and "girls' toilet" there too. Acceptable or no, the apostropheless form certainly stands out to me as strange. (And yes, "mens toilet" or indeed "mens' toilet" are nonsensical — "men's" is the obviously correct form.)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_sabik_/]

Reminds me of "Rainbows End"... where it actually says in the book that the titular place was either named by someone with a poor grasp of grammar or by someone who really knew the place...

ObBuffy, I like the argument that the singular Watcher in the Watcher's Council is the currently-active one, Giles. Except, come to think of it, for much of the series there were two — does that mean it was Watcher's Council in the first season, and Watchers' Council thereafter?


η

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Watchers' Council, cause the council belongs to the Watchers, "Lovers Walk" because it was a play on "Lover's Walk" as opposed to the actual meaning of lovers walking away, and finally, pigs blood, because...the blood no longer belongs to the pig or pigs--it's like saying "I'm drinking blood of pigs/swine."

[curiouswombat.livejournal.com]

I would say the council belongs to the watchers, so watchers'; the lovers are walking so Lovers Walk, and the chances are the blood comes from more than one pig - the slaughterhouse probably mix it!

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Pig's blood comes from the Generic Pig, and is the general term. Pigs' blood would come from a specific group of pigs and refer to one particular sample of blood.

Haters talk, lovers walk. Or something like that. :-)

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

If it wasn't so late I'm sure I'd be greatly amused by this discussion. As it is, all I can do is moan "punctuation make my brain hurt!" and wonder if this infamous editing course isn't some devious cult in disguise. Promise me you won't drink the kool-aid if they offer, m'kay?

[quinara]

It's the Council Of Watchers (COW!), so Watchers' Council is how you swap the genitive round....

[gillo]

Lovers' Walk

is tricky because it is arguably all three - the walk taken by a lover, the group of lovers taking their own walks or even the fact that the lovers walk out on their girls/boys/vamps. I chose the plural possessive, but the apostrophe-free version is as useful. The meta exists even in the punctuation when it's the Buffyverse!

[silverusagi]

Even if they used Watcher's Council in a script, it's still incorrect, LOL.

Ah.

[brutti-ma-buoni.livejournal.com]

Now, of course, I realise I would say all these are plural possessive. Yet I do not type them as a rule. Oh. Damn.

I had a vague feeling Lovers' Walk was a quote, but darned if I can think where from*, so the punctuation is sheer gut feeling. Pigs' blood, in the sense that you can't guarantee it's from only one pig... (eeeuw).

The Watchers' Council is the only one I'm absolutely set on, and I'm afraid plural possessives in formal titles are dwindling out of common use. Woe.

*Googling gets me nothing but Buffy and street names, so I assume I'm wrong here. Lovers' Walk would be right for a street name, but they rarely bother to punctuate such signs.