Romantic Silence
Jan. 22nd, 2009 08:02 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
deird_ljSo, along with the whole enemies in love thing, I think I've figured out another thing that turns me into a rabid shipper...
At least one of the pair cannot say "I love you".
It can be because they've never said it before, because they're completely screwed up, because they've had bad experiences saying it in the past, or because there's an excellent external reason (...such as being in a relationship with someone else) why they can't.
But, for whatever reason, they can't talk about "love".
This is true for most of the people I love seeing in relationships: House (with Cuddy), Mal Reynolds (with Inara), Aeryn Sun (with Crichton), Wes (with Lilah, or with Fred), Angel (with Darla), and (sorry, old-style Who fans) the Doctor (with Rose).
All those people have major issues - with relationships in general, and especially with this whole "I love you" thing.
The same is also true of Niles Crane (how do you tell someone you love her when you're both in relationships with other people?), Sam Carter (stupid military and its stupid rules), and Jack in While You Were Sleeping (when the woman you love is engaged to your brother).
And it's definitely true for Buffy Summers.
It's weird, because along with the whole thing of loving characters who can't talk about love, I get really annoyed when characters do.
And, in Lie To Me, we have this conversation:
"Do you love me?"
"I love you. I'm not sure I trust you."
...which was supposed to be all deep and meaningful, but was slightly marred by the fact that as soon as Buffy said "I love you" I started yelling at the screen: "Hah! You do not, you silly silly person!"
This isn't because I don't like Buffy/Angel. My reaction would pretty much have been the same no matter who the couple was.
I'm so very used to dealing with couples who won't say anything, and looking for subtle actions, gestures, facial expressions, pauses, and so on, that a blatant statement of "I love you" leaves me not believing a word they say.
Whereas, in the case of Buffy/Spike...
I have no problem whatsoever with Spike constantly running around trying to convince Buffy he's in love with her. One person in the relationship doing that is fine, as long as the other one...
um...
kisses him, tells him she trusts him more than anyone else, hangs out in his crypt, kisses him some more, has very exciting sex with him, keeps trying to break up with him and then changing her mind, gets jealous of him, looks after him, talks to him, feeds him, rescues him, depends on him, spends hours cuddling him, refuses to be without him, protects him, has every single person who sees them together commenting on how much they're into each other and how "hot" they are together and how much they rely on each other...
...and still can't bring herself to actually mention that she might possibly maybe be in love with him.
And really, they did an excellent job of making me all shippy. Had Buffy said "I love you" to Spike earlier on, it would have provoked the same reaction as the whole Buffy/Angel thing: "Hah! You moron! Of course you don't love him! You're still in love with Riley!"
...okay, not Riley.
But you get the point.
Whereas, by having Buffy not say anything, over and over, until the very last episode, the writers ensured that I would keep shipping Buffy/Spike pretty much forever.
Clever, clever writers.
Questions? Comments?
At least one of the pair cannot say "I love you".
It can be because they've never said it before, because they're completely screwed up, because they've had bad experiences saying it in the past, or because there's an excellent external reason (...such as being in a relationship with someone else) why they can't.
But, for whatever reason, they can't talk about "love".
This is true for most of the people I love seeing in relationships: House (with Cuddy), Mal Reynolds (with Inara), Aeryn Sun (with Crichton), Wes (with Lilah, or with Fred), Angel (with Darla), and (sorry, old-style Who fans) the Doctor (with Rose).
All those people have major issues - with relationships in general, and especially with this whole "I love you" thing.
The same is also true of Niles Crane (how do you tell someone you love her when you're both in relationships with other people?), Sam Carter (stupid military and its stupid rules), and Jack in While You Were Sleeping (when the woman you love is engaged to your brother).
And it's definitely true for Buffy Summers.
It's weird, because along with the whole thing of loving characters who can't talk about love, I get really annoyed when characters do.
And, in Lie To Me, we have this conversation:
"Do you love me?"
"I love you. I'm not sure I trust you."
...which was supposed to be all deep and meaningful, but was slightly marred by the fact that as soon as Buffy said "I love you" I started yelling at the screen: "Hah! You do not, you silly silly person!"
This isn't because I don't like Buffy/Angel. My reaction would pretty much have been the same no matter who the couple was.
I'm so very used to dealing with couples who won't say anything, and looking for subtle actions, gestures, facial expressions, pauses, and so on, that a blatant statement of "I love you" leaves me not believing a word they say.
Whereas, in the case of Buffy/Spike...
I have no problem whatsoever with Spike constantly running around trying to convince Buffy he's in love with her. One person in the relationship doing that is fine, as long as the other one...
um...
kisses him, tells him she trusts him more than anyone else, hangs out in his crypt, kisses him some more, has very exciting sex with him, keeps trying to break up with him and then changing her mind, gets jealous of him, looks after him, talks to him, feeds him, rescues him, depends on him, spends hours cuddling him, refuses to be without him, protects him, has every single person who sees them together commenting on how much they're into each other and how "hot" they are together and how much they rely on each other...
...and still can't bring herself to actually mention that she might possibly maybe be in love with him.
And really, they did an excellent job of making me all shippy. Had Buffy said "I love you" to Spike earlier on, it would have provoked the same reaction as the whole Buffy/Angel thing: "Hah! You moron! Of course you don't love him! You're still in love with Riley!"
...okay, not Riley.
But you get the point.
Whereas, by having Buffy not say anything, over and over, until the very last episode, the writers ensured that I would keep shipping Buffy/Spike pretty much forever.
Clever, clever writers.
Questions? Comments?
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 09:35 pm (UTC)Which suddenly brings this wonderful Nathan Fillion out-take to mind, for no real reason "Kaylee, find that kid who's takin' a dirt-nap with Baby Jesus, we need a hood ornament!"
re. Carter and O'Neill....I love how in every alternate reality but one, they're married, having kids, etc...what the hell's wrong with this reality then dammit?
And in a deleted scene from Atlantis she mentioned to
Kayleesorry, the new doctor chick that she was in a relationship with someone, making it very clear without naming names who it was....Sigh. Why delete the best scenes, people, whyyyyy?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 09:42 pm (UTC)Hee! Silly Nathan!
I love how in every alternate reality but one, they're married, having kids, etc...what the hell's wrong with this reality then dammit?
Definitely. I liked that when they did it the first time, but then it kept on happening, and just got funnier and funnier (and really sweet), and I just squeed more and more...
(Although, gotta say, Sam married to Rodney? Was kind of awesome.)
she mentioned to Kaylee sorry, the new doctor chick that she was in a relationship with someone, making it very clear without naming names who it was....
O.O
Really? When? What happened? I want details, dammit!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:02 pm (UTC)Or the one where she was on the ship all alone, dying, and he came to her...ahh, that was so sweet.
And there were the sad ones with alternateSam, where he'd died in her reality and she couldn't face him. Argh. Shades of John'n'Aeryn. :-(
(Although, gotta say, Sam married to Rodney? Was kind of awesome.)
I loved that! It was so unexpected, and kinda sad, but...yeah, it worked. It really did. Sigh. Poor guy.
O.O
Really? When? What happened? I want details, dammit!
Hah. Gotta wait til you've gotten to that disc...shall I bring Atlantis 1-4 with me next week, along with the SG movies?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:09 pm (UTC)Or the one where she was on the ship all alone, dying, and he came to her...ahh, that was so sweet.
*nods* Loved that. (Although, pretty much any episode where Jack and Sam got to kiss was going to be loved by me...)
Shades of John'n'Aeryn.
Just like all good tv relationships...
Hah. Gotta wait til you've gotten to that disc...
Ack! You can't do that to me!
shall I bring Atlantis 1-4 with me next week, along with the SG movies?
Not yet. I'm frantically trying to finish all the dvds I actually own (there are at least ten I'm halfway through).
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:14 pm (UTC)Well yes, I can do that to you. Or i could bring that disc (if I can remember which one it was ;-) ) and show you that deleted scene...
Maawww.....fine then. Who knows when you'll get to see Atlantis then?
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:35 pm (UTC)Ohhh... now you're making me really want to see it at once. Stop that!
(*is still halfway through Lois&Clark, The X-Files season 1, My Name Is Earl, My Family, Animated Spiderman, Fry&Laurie, The Muppet Show, Avatar, Mad About You, and Xena ...among others*)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:40 pm (UTC)Ah, I used to love Lois&Clark!
Good thing about shows you own is....they ain't going anywhere.
So leave them and come join the 'lantians for a spell.
*tempts* We have Rodneeeeey....
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 09:48 pm (UTC)WESLEY: You don't feel.
LILAH: The only true thing I ever—
WESLEY: You didn't love me! You *couldn't*...
LILAH: We'll never know now, will we?
*curls up sniffling in a corner*
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 09:51 pm (UTC)(Or possibly... "I'm evil that way. Mwahahaha." One or the other.)
*desperately needs a Wes/Lilah icon*
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:15 pm (UTC)When I did a few thoughts at the end of my re-watch of Season 2 I realised that Buffy's "puppy love" was what all teens probably need (I didn't go through it!) ... but then her whole life was gradually taken apart, and she slowly put it back together ... and this is where I tend to think that love came (eventually) from ... her knowledge that she was going to lose her supported, friend, sparring partner ... her everything. Yes, she needed to travel a long way - but I think it was her true love.
I don't think she was in love with Riley, to me he was the "what students should be doing/trying to prove she is normal".
I loved Farscape ... and what I was able to watch of Stargate ... yes, they are great relationships ... Hadn't thought of this one-sided words, so I shall mentally re-view with that thought.
Thanks.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:45 pm (UTC)*nods in agreement*
Although I'm kinda weird - I tend to define Buffy's "soul mate" as Angel, her "match" as Spike, and her "true love" as... well, both of them (although not at the same time).
I don't think she was in love with Riley, to me he was the "what students should be doing/trying to prove she is normal".
Yet more agreement from here - no way was she in love with Riley.
Glad you found this interesting!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 07:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:22 pm (UTC)and (sorry, old-style Who fans) the Doctor (with Rose).
Auuuggghhh!!! Stop it! Stop it! Stop it! The Doctor's a happily asexual 900+ year old alien, thankyouverymuch!!
;)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:31 pm (UTC)Hahahaha....aww, but he did have feelings for her, we all saw it! We all cried along!
Stop denying it. ;-)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:35 pm (UTC)Stop denying it. ;-)
Nah. Now the Fourth Doctor totally had a thing for Romana II. But the Doc doesn't have romances with humans. It's icky.
Old-school Doctor Who fan is old-school
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:49 pm (UTC)And Xena/Ares? Thin ice there. I'm a hardcore Xena/Gabby subtext fan. :)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 11:06 pm (UTC)True. I never started watching consistently until the new series...
And Xena/Ares? Thin ice there. I'm a hardcore Xena/Gabby subtext fan.
Xena/Gabrielle FTW!
Although Xena/Ares is technically canon, and technically cross-species...
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 11:13 pm (UTC)and possibly incestuous...
:)I actually don't mind Xena/Ares. Ares is an alright guy. You know...for a God of War...
From Laney
Date: 2009-01-22 08:50 am (UTC)Unless you're suggesting that he'd reproduced asexually...
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 09:26 pm (UTC)You had to go there, didn't you?
This is one of the big divides in Doctor Who fandom: the looms. You see, there was this novel called Lungbarrow, in which Gallifrey was cursed with sterility, and so they developed a way of reproducing asexually using looms.
This lasted for quite a while, until the curse was finally lifted, and they could go back to baby-making the old-fashioned way.
A lot of Whovians maintain that the Doctor is asexual - which is balanced by a lot of other Whovians, who think the looms thing is the silliest idea ever conceived (pardon the pun).
This is further complicated by the question of what, in the Whoniverse, counts as canon. (Does this tie-in novel count? Or not?)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 10:45 pm (UTC)Well, maybe he didn't use to...certainly seems to have that spin now! Not that anything ever comes of them, of course, like all good dramatic relationships...
no subject
Date: 2009-01-21 11:17 pm (UTC)...and still can't bring herself to actually mention that she might possibly maybe be in love with him.
I am the biggest sap in Sapville, so you'll have to excuse me, but OMG, seeing it broken down, so simply like that, it's like both "Duh! How could anyone still doubt it!?" and also kind of brings a tear to my eye. Sometimes I really do still miss them.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 03:56 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 12:08 am (UTC)Also, you didn't mention them as a couple you ship, so perhaps you do not watch the show. But may I recommend Chuck and Blair from "Gossip Girl"? Their non-relationship makes me all kinds of shippy.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 03:57 am (UTC)Haven't seen Gossip Girl. Maybe I should...
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 12:39 am (UTC)I didn't mind Buffy's "I love you" because she was young and swooning and that, but I didn't really believe it. In, say, Becoming II? I believe it. The relationship has to earn that credibility first, and then we can't be constantly hit over the head with it. And it certainly can't erase all of their issues, because that's unrealistic and boring.
Heh, lack of 'I love you's can work for any Doctor 'ship, really. (See, my icon is relevant! :D) Though I think one thing I don't like about the Doctor/Rose ship is - she can say it, and he can't, and it kind of adds to the unbalance? Yeah.
(And I know we're supposed to assume Handy said it, but thinking it was "You're fantastic" just makes me wibble, because I am pitiful that way.)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 03:58 am (UTC)Definitely.
but thinking it was "You're fantastic" just makes me wibble
O.O That never occurred to me. Ooh! I want that too!
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 04:03 am (UTC):D I am not alone! And Ten did compare Handy to Nine even though it didn't make any sense in context really. (In my head, it goes Handy=more awesome than Ten, hence Handy=Nine. > >)
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 01:32 am (UTC)This can be circumvented, however, in the case of two "I love yous" canceled out by a tragic end to the relationship: for instance, I find Willow and Tara a wonderful and adorable and amazing couple, and even though of course Tara's death made me very sad, it also made the show interesting. I don't particularly understand people who think she shouldn't have died; yes, I love Tara and it's a sad thing, but I like it being sad, y'know?
This rule can also be applied to Wesley and Fred. Maybe they don't both say I love you, but they have their happysappy moment, which Joss makes interesting through Fred being taken over by Illyria and essentially dying.
And also for Xander and Anya: they're interesting for most of the years of their relationship because they quarrel and bicker, but when they seem all happysappy nearer to the wedding, it can only be made interesting by the wedding not happening. I mean, how boring would it have been to have the wedding go through perfectly, without a hitch, most beautiful day of their lives? Something has to ruin it for us to stay tuned.
I do like fluff. But it should be tempered by angst, methinks.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 04:02 am (UTC)*claps excitedly*
I don't particularly understand people who think she shouldn't have died; yes, I love Tara and it's a sad thing, but I like it being sad, y'know?
Agreed. It's sad, but it's awfully good for the story.
no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 01:53 pm (UTC)Yay! Fannish minds think alike.
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Date: 2009-01-22 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 09:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-01-22 09:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-14 09:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-14 10:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-14 06:16 pm (UTC)I do have another kink which sort of trumps this one in certain circumstances: my marriage kink. So if Wash and Zoe said it or Coach and Mrs. Coach from Friday Night Lights or Helo and Athena or whatever, it's okay with me. Because their rock-solid foundation is the point, and I love that.
But it's much, much more interesting in other circumstances to showshowshow instead of tell. Yay!
no subject
Date: 2010-03-14 10:12 pm (UTC)